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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
 Posted - 04/15/2002 : 09:23:41
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I happened upon this website while doing research for my "Searching for an Historical Jesus" research paper for English 101 (boy is this a gamble, turning in a paper like that in Alabama!)
The analogy is perfect. [other than that the author apparently, after all his wonderful reasoning, still buys into the notion of the existence of God. So close!]
quote:
So imagine a pit of lava beyond the point where your children are allowed to play. Now imagine writing them a letter to instruct them on how to avoid the burning pit. You refuse to actually appear in front of them and assure them that the letter is genuine - you expect them to discover the letter and figure out for themselves that you wrote it. (Okay, go ahead and include in the letter something like "all letters written by me, your father, are true, so pay attention to them" ... similar to the passage in 2 Timothy 3:16,17.) If they don't discover this important letter, it is the responsibility of their siblings to show it to them. If a child of yours goes too far and ends up in the lava pit, you feel sad, but it's the child's fault, and the fault of his siblings. Never mind that you could have physically stopped that child. Your ways and your thoughts are higher than the child's (Isaiah 55:9), and who is the child to argue with the father (Romans 9:19)? Mercy and compassion are doled out to your children at your pleasure (Romans 9:15).
As a result of your insane parental neglect, most of your offspring end up in the lava pit. After all, none of them have ever seen the pit, then returned to warn others about it; once they see it, they're in, burning and twisting, screaming for Daddy to rescue them. But Dad left that letter lying around, so they have no one to blame but themselves.
Did I mention that this lava pit doesn't kill your children immediately? They will suffer for days in that fire before they finally die. They really should have read that letter. (Some of your children did read the letter, but ignored it, or didn't recognize it as genuine. Serves them right, doesn't it?)
Of course, unless you're pure evil, you're not going along with any of this. You would start each day with a severe face-to-face warning on the dangers of that lava pit; your children would have no doubt that they were hearing the voice of Dad. You would physically prevent them from ever going near it. (If just one of them found his way into the lava, the knowledge that he suffered ultimate torment for several days before finally dying would be enough to drive you to suicide.) You would build a wall around your property to keep them away from the lava. There would be no discussion of free will, or sin, or the need for sacrifice. Your children are not going into that pit, period.
Better yet, if it was in your power to do so, you would remove the pit. In fact, you wouldn't have put the pit there to begin with!
God is an even better parent than you or I. If hell existed, he would have hung a flashing neon sign in the sky warning us to stay away from it. But God didn't create hell, because God is good; men created the concept of hell in order to frighten an ignorant population into submitting to their authority. In my example above, the lava burns the children for several days before killing them; but the hell we've been taught is one of eternal torment. God couldn't even think of that, let alone create it.
The real shocker for me was when I realized that, even back when God was in the habit of speaking directly to his children, he did not, according to the Genesis account, warn Adam and Eve that hell was the result of their sin!
I've not heard of a fundamentalist reply to the question of how an all good God could send people to hell, other than "we can't understand the mind of God!".
Any believer out there want to help me out?
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Truth above pride and ego; truth above all
Edited by - tokyodreamer on 04/15/2002 09:25:43
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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2002 : 11:52:02 [Permalink]
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The whole website is very interesting. A view into the mind of an openminded christian who tried to approach the whole religion buisness logicaly.
He found out that the Bible is not literal true but made up and that Jesus is a myth. He came to the conclusion that the whole Hell buisness does not work well with an omnipotent and benovelent creator. He realized that all the different religions and supernatural events can't all be true they are mostly mutual exculsive.
He came that far! All it would have taken was another little step! A small leap of faith into the unknown...
But somehow he does not quite make. He tries to come up with his own ideas of how the whole God thing could still work, how all the stuff that some people belive could still be at least partly true. He has to belive that there is more out there than what we can see.
He has achived so much more then the average true believer; I hope for him that in time he will be able to make that final step to not belive. To live with the fact that people like Edgar Cayce and Joseph Smith were indeed liars. That reality, as strange as it may seem, is exactly what it is and not something out of a Philip K Dick novel. That there is nobody out there guiding our ways.
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Megan
Skeptic Friend
USA
163 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2002 : 14:25:10 [Permalink]
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I completely agree with Lars_H, took the words right out of my mouth. On question though: who is Edgar Cayce and Joseph Smith anyway?
~Megan~
BTW, I'm a 15 year old that never stops asking questions(=P). |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2002 : 14:57:26 [Permalink]
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Edgar was a con man from the 20's & 30's called the "Sleeping Psychic" You would tell him what ailed ya, he'd take a nap and while he was out he would diagnosis what was wrong and how to cure it. Then he'd wake up and take your check. It was he that predicted that California would sink into the Pacific and Mu (same thing as Atlantis only out Hawaii way) would rise in the late 1960's.
Smith was the dude who started the Mormons by being given invisible gold plates by the equally invisible angel Moroni. He was later dispatched by an all too visible mob.
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It will sometimes be necessary to use falsehood for the benefit of those who need such a mode of treatment.
----Eusebius of Nicomedia,
The Preparation of the Gospel |
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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2002 : 15:10:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
I completely agree with Lars_H, took the words right out of my mouth. On question though: who is Edgar Cayce and Joseph Smith anyway?
~Megan~
BTW, I'm a 15 year old that never stops asking questions(=P).
Edgar Cayce was a famous psychic and prophet during the first half of the last century. He made a lot of predictions that did not came true. He invented a lot of facts about atlantis that have become part of atlatis mythos. He has influenced the generations of psychics, miracle healers, hypno-frauds and prophets that came after him. Even today many people still belive that he had supernatural powers.
Joseph Smith founded an organization called "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" also known as the Mormons. He claimed a lot of really unbelivable stuff and did some very questionable things. He still has many belivers today.
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James
SFN Regular
USA
754 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2002 : 16:53:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
Joseph Smith founded an organization called "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" also known as the Mormons. He claimed a lot of really unbelivable stuff and did some very questionable things. He still has many belivers today.
You may also know them as Fundies and the arseholes who won't quit knocking on your door. Them and solicitors.
________________________
Two more years...Two more years...Two more years...Two more years...Two more years...
*whine* |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2002 : 05:17:21 [Permalink]
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Cayce is still quoted by the deluded optomistic today. His predictions are followed like he was a latter day Nostrodamus, an equally fraudulent and defunct seer. Both are honored by the supermarket tabloids on almost a clockwork basis.
Joe Smith was pretty far out, but didn't last long enough really get going. If he had, we'd be seeing him in the tabs as well. The Mormon (this is a misspelling. there should be only one 'm') Church was ultimatly taken over by Brigham Young. It is thought that Brigham was a little too drifty to be a really good prophet. Therefore, the tabs have little to say about him.
But, on the plus side, the Latter Day folks did turn a little piece of badlands into a successful, if narrow-minded, city.
f
"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason."--Benjamin Franklin, _Poor_Richard_, 1758
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Bradley
Skeptic Friend
USA
147 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2002 : 09:41:04 [Permalink]
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Who could forget old brigham young? He was the one who said, "I don't care how ya bri'g 'em; just bri'g 'em young!"
"Too much doubt is better than too much credulity."
-Robert Green Ingersoll (1833 - 1899) |
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Night Spawn
New Member
USA
37 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2002 : 16:36:15 [Permalink]
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Tokyodreamer,
I saw your question and I went to this link searching for an answer for you. If this answer doesn't suit you completely, then you can come to this link and join in on the debate concerning this subject.
http://www.crosswalk.com/
Go there, then go to the Forum entitled "God" and the subject is in there.
If that link doesn't work just tell me. I hope this helps you in some kind of way concerning your question.
Jesus was once asked a similar question, but on a more practical level:
Luke 13
1 Now on the same occasion there were some present who reported to Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices.
2 And Jesus said to them, "Do you suppose that these Galileans were greater sinners than all other Galileans because they suffered this fate?
3 "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
4 "Or do you suppose that those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them were worse culprits than all the men who live in Jerusalem?
5 "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish."
Do you see what Jesus was asked? Essentially, it was "Why do bad things happen to good people?" Jesus' response was that they are asking the wrong question. The proper question is "Why do good things happen to bad people?" Since we are all sinners, the bad things happening to these people could just as easily happen to us. Therefore, Jesus tells us to repent or we, too, will perish.
Now let's put that question in eternal perspective, and look at the question of this thread: "How can a loving God send people to Hell?"
Knowing what Jesus taught, we can see that the real question should be turned around to "How can a just God allow people into Heaven?"
The fact is that we all deserve Hell. We have all sinned. Is is precisely because God is loving and merciful that some of us will be spared that destiny.
Even if we all commit one tiny sin, we become a sinner. We are forever blemished by sin and reject God unless God Himself makes a change in our lives. We are not punished for our finite sins, but for our own state of eternally rejecting God. Without repentance, we stay in that state eternally. That is why our sin demands an eternal punishment.
Praise God that He has seen fit to be merciful on us and sheds His compassion abroad through the life-giving good news of Jesus Christ!
Doug
I'm sorry that I couldn't personally answer this for you, but as I grow in Christ, I hope to understand things like this.
God Bless,
Timothy
Edited by - Night Spawn on 04/25/2002 16:44:53 |
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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2002 : 16:50:59 [Permalink]
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So if I get The explanation right, then Jesus admits that there is no justice. And according to you that is OK. We should not even ask for justice, since we would all be of worse if everyone got what he deserved.
So given the sytems you describe we should all be grateful for what we get, because it is the best we could ask for under those conditions. Makes sense.
But wait! Who established those conditions? Who made the rules? Who created Hell? Who created evil? Who made the rules that you go to hell, if you never heared of Jesus?
I think it is a good thing that Hell is just a myth or I would have to be quite upset at whoever came up with it.
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2002 : 17:19:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
Tokyodreamer,
I saw your question and I went to this link searching for an answer for you. If this answer doesn't suit you completely, then you can come to this link and join in on the debate concerning this subject.
http://www.crosswalk.com/
Go there, then go to the Forum entitled "God" and the subject is in there.
Gee look kids it's Crosswalk.com the same site that published the Atheist April Fools day article.
I had a short conversation there on the Science and Religion folder in a thread about "the Flood." Called myself Dr_S. Thanks for the invitation Night Spawn, but if you aren't a Christian "Fritz" will kick you off. It seems they have no trouble publishing hate articles about Atheists but they can't bear to hear actual science.
It is worth a look though. The people who post their ideas of what science is can't distinguish pseudo-science from the real thing. It's more frightening than it is funny.
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It will sometimes be necessary to use falsehood for the benefit of those who need such a mode of treatment.
----Eusebius of Nicomedia,
The Preparation of the Gospel |
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Night Spawn
New Member
USA
37 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2002 : 17:55:26 [Permalink]
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First off, let me state that I know nothing of the website. I was trying to look for an answer to this question and I came across the site. I didn't know they were mormons...i don't agree with mormonism. Just want that to be known
quote:
So if I get The explanation right, then Jesus admits that there is no justice. And according to you that is OK. We should not even ask for justice, since we would all be of worse if everyone got what he deserved.
Can you copy/paste out of the article where it says that?
quote:
But wait! Who established those conditions? Who made the rules? Who created Hell? Who created evil? Who made the rules that you go to hell, if you never heared of Jesus?
What do you mean by these conditions? I just want to be sure that I'm responding accurately.
God made the rules, of course. He could have chosen them to be much much worse than this if you think about it....although, I don't see anything wrong with his rules. God is like the law...he wants to be obeyed.
God didn't create evil. he created the choice for evil, because he wanted us to choose. What did you expect God to do? Program us like robots to act a certain way or do a certain thing? Or to make us like puppets whom have no choice at all?
I thank God for, at least, giving me choice.
You also asked "Who created Hell"?
I would attempt to answer this, but I know that I will get bombed with questions(lol). I can give you a link which will lead you to christian philosopher, Dr. Craig, whom debates with an atheist(i think) on/about Hell. They both make very good points and very good questions are answered in the question and answer section.
http://www.leaderu.com/offices/billcraig/index.html
Just go to the debates section and then there is a debate concerning Hell.
Your next question is, who made the rules that you go to Hell?
God makes the rules just as governments make rules over people. Although, I am a christian, I do agree with you guys on some of these subjects...I hope that I can build my knowledge up in Christ like Dr. Craig has and answer tough questions like these one day. Until, I find those answers, I'm just glad God didn't make the rules worse than they are now.
Edited by - Night Spawn on 04/25/2002 18:04:54 |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2002 : 17:59:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
I'm sorry that I couldn't personally answer this for you, but as I grow in Christ, I hope to understand things like this.
God Bless,
Timothy
Tim, I see that you just copied Dougs reply from Crosswalk and pasted it here.
On Crosswalk itself you gushed over Doug telling you this drivel. Don't you realize that this answer is indicative of a type of mental illness called masochism? What gave you such a low opinion of yourself? Christianity is rough on it's followers but I never heard of it being this nasty. What sect is teaching this awful stuff?
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It will sometimes be necessary to use falsehood for the benefit of those who need such a mode of treatment.
----Eusebius of Nicomedia,
The Preparation of the Gospel |
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Night Spawn
New Member
USA
37 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2002 : 17:59:47 [Permalink]
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quote:
I had a short conversation there on the Science and Religion folder in a thread about "the Flood." Called myself Dr_S. Thanks for the invitation Night Spawn, but if you aren't a Christian "Fritz" will kick you off.
I'm sorry that they do that over there. I only found the site last night and went straight to the God threads. I'll be honest and say....some christians just suck
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Night Spawn
New Member
USA
37 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2002 : 18:02:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
Tim, I see that you just copied Dougs reply from Crosswalk and pasted it here.
On Crosswalk itself you gushed over Doug telling you this drivel. Don't you realize that this answer is indicative of a type of mental illness called masochism? What gave you such a low opinion of yourself? Christianity is rough on it's followers but I never heard of it being this nasty. What sect is teaching this awful stuff?
I thanked him, because he gave me the best answer that has ever been given to me...it was typed in my opinion and I'm sorry if you disagreed with it. I try to please people, but I can't please everybody.
I don't understand all of your questions
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2002 : 18:25:26 [Permalink]
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quote:
I don't understand all of your questions
Your gladness in getting Dougs reply indicates that you have a poor sense of self worth. This nonsense that you or anyone are deserving of infinite punishment for finite "sins" shows an outlook on the world that is so dreadful that my heart goes out to you.
Try to feel better Tim. There is no boogeyman under the bed, there is no God, no Jesus, no heaven, no hell. You are not a bad person,and you won't be punished merely for existing.
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It will sometimes be necessary to use falsehood for the benefit of those who need such a mode of treatment.
----Eusebius of Nicomedia,
The Preparation of the Gospel |
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