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Night Spawn
New Member
USA
37 Posts |
 Posted - 04/27/2002 : 21:07:09 [Permalink]
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PhDreamer:
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I had considered you might be able to pick out the implied premises. No matter; this syllogism sums up your position:
Let God be an omnipotent, omnibenevolent, omniscient being.
P1) God created all that exists except for God
P2) God can alter his creation in any meaningful way
P3) God is the ultimate judge of universal good and evil
P3) Any of God's creations will have maximum intrinsic goodness or will lead to increased overall goodness
P4) God created universe A with free will
C1) God could not have created universe A without free will
C1 is false because it does not follow from the premises. It is simply a statement of incredulity. There is no reason God could not have created a universe without the freedom to choose evil. If you claim there is a reason, then you eliminate omnipotence. The best you can do is say God told you in your dreams this free will universe has the maximum amount of possible good. And that's poor reasoning, at best.
If you believe my reasoning is poor, then show me how...thanks
I disagree and don't see the point in naming some of those premises(it not all of them)
Also, your C1 is falsely typed. My example and my replies read that God chooses not to create a universe without free will. If I have typed that God can't, then I am wrong(i don't believe I have, though...). I also explained why God chose to do that...
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So he really does answer questions you ask him? Are there limits to what you may ask?
I ask according to what I need help with understanding. I don't believe there are limits...some answers may seem un-reliable or not good enough to disbelievers, but that's what separates disbelievers from believers.
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Some years ago, I read a few cognitive psych studies about the 'feeling of knowing.' I'll try to find something to link to, but the findings were remarkably consistent: The degree to which one feels he knows something has a startlingly small correlation with what he actually knows.
thanks for sharing that with me....
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I have no idea what you two talk about at night. I'm trying to teach you logic.
I don't need teaching....your guys opinions aren't being ignored and have been taken into thought.
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  Ahem. The above is what's know as a signature. It's usually something that I find humorous, insightful or in some other way memorable, so I tell the bulletin board software to place it at the end of all my posts. This particular one is by the 18th century philosopher, David Hume. It's from his Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion, which I am currently reading.
As I said before.....
James:
quote:
We all do respect your beliefs, but until you can not only provide solid proof of the Bible being real, let alone an interpretation everyone in the world agrees on, then we'll start being a little more gentle.
Everyone disagrees on something....
That's like me being rude and immature to you guys just because you don't give me solid proof that shows atheism is real and then saying, "gimme gimme and I'll be gentle"...i'd rather be mature.
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You know God all right, because you are just talking with your subconscious!
thanks for sharing that with me....
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And PhDreamer's right, if you change one word in you first statement above, you could be put into a cell with padded walls.
I might enjoy a place like that...as long as they give me kool-aid(hehe)
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Try this one night: Take a problem that has been really been bugging you or even the night before a big test. Don't pray over it, becuase that will through everything off. You can make up for it in the morning. Anyway, work on your problem or study right up to when you go to sleep. What'll happen is that your subconscious will work on everything for you overnight while you sleep and it'll help you. If you wish to think that God helped you in some way, fine, provided you didn't pray the night before. I've used that technique before, right before a bartender's exam. I just did everything in my head and did the motions with my hands and I did fine. Fat lot of good it did me in getting a job, though...
Thanks for sharing something with me which I've done before. So, basically, you give praise(if that's what you want to call it) to your subconscious and I give praise to God for helping me out on certain things....
Slater:
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Myself, I have the honor of being an Atheist. If anyone is immature it is you ending each reply to Agnostics/Atheists by saying "God bless."
I've met plenty of Agnostics whom believe in a God and say "God bless"....point?
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That is the height of rudeness and yet we all let it pass.
lol@the height of rudeness. I can stoop down to "barney" level and show this "height of rudeness", but I choose not to.
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You have balls to claim that your god is real and talks to you in your sleep and think that expressing your opinion is just fine.
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2002 : 21:22:46 [Permalink]
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An Agnostic cannot believe in God by definition. Believing in God demands a certain amount of faith that no Agnostic has. See, once you believe you can't be an agnostics because Agnostics think that the issue of whether God Exists or not is unknowable. Do you see the difference? Belief/Unknowable?
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Night Spawn
New Member
USA
37 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2002 : 21:25:59 [Permalink]
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I've met agnostics whom believe in a God...they have said God Bless to me before. They were sending me blessings from their God.
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2002 : 21:32:39 [Permalink]
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Then they need to learn what an Agnostic is and stop fooling themselves...or you. Agnostics don't believe, they can't.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Night Spawn
New Member
USA
37 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2002 : 21:34:05 [Permalink]
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Everyone believes in something....
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2002 : 21:40:36 [Permalink]
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LOL, please....stop it with the cliches. You're killing me!
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Night Spawn
New Member
USA
37 Posts |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2002 : 22:18:48 [Permalink]
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I may say "bless you" when someone sneezes. That's a little social thing. It doesn't mean anything really. I have no faith what so ever in the existance of anything supernatural. That's because I'm agnostic....
The Evil Skeptic
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous. |
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2002 : 00:24:31 [Permalink]
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WTF? I was taught to say "bless you" at a very young age. I still say it occasionally. So what? Its certainly shorter than "Oops you sneezed. Are you okay? If you need anything ie tissue, CPR, etc, please let me know."
To me, its just a phrase.
And BTW, I'm an atheist. No white haired man in the sky.
Lisa
If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much room. |
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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2002 : 05:23:04 [Permalink]
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Just because someone uses a phrase including God, Jesus or any other mythological figure does not necessarily mean that he believes in the existence of said being. For most people that are just figures of speech. Almost no rational thinking person today still believes that cursing or blessing or invoking some deity actually has any effect. It is just a traditional show of your intention.
By the same reasoning that you think an atheist/agnost becomes a theist when saying something like "God damn!", you could also claim that, people who use the english names of the weekdays actually belive in the Norse gods and Saturn.
Edited by - Lars_h on 04/28/2002 05:28:14 |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2002 : 12:11:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
Everyone believes in something....
How can you complain that other people don't believe your myth and then declare that they do believe?
I don't believe this fairy tale and, by what you've written, neither do you.
In Matthew Jesus says again and again that hell is a fiery furnace. You say no, it's just separation from god. So you don't believe what it says.
Genesis says a "day". You say, no, a thousand years. So you don't believe what it says.
Genesis says that god punishes Adam and Eve for gaining the knowledge of good and evil. You say, no, they already knew the difference between good and evil. So again you don't believe what it says.
To cap it off you say that god speaks directly to you which is such an enormous blasphemy that the historic christian church would have burned you alive for even saying it. So you really mustn't believe or you wouldn't commit such a mortal sin.
Contrary to "everybody believing something," you've demonstrated that nobody could possibly believe this myth. You certainly don't. You rewrite it at will to mean whatever you want it to mean. That's not belief, that's self indulgence.
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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LordofEntropy
Skeptic Friend
USA
85 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2002 : 15:12:22 [Permalink]
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What I like about the whole all-just all-loving God thing is that I can go out and rape and murder a bunch of people, then simply ask for forgiveness, and I am guaranteed a spot in heaven. From what I understand I can do this several times even! Hell, if I am Catholic I can rape and murder people every week as long as I confess in church every Sunday.
If a child is born with severe brain damage( brain damage is another one of God's "gifts".) Unable to beg forgiveness, being that his "gift" makes him unable to eat and breath on his own, let alone ask anyone for anything. When that child dies he goes to hell, cause of course he is such a bad person for just existing, and never asking, I mean begging to be forgiven, how dare he defy God!
I don't need any further evidence of God's justness and love! Sign me up!
Entropy just isn't what it used to be.
Edited by - lordofentropy on 04/28/2002 15:17:52 |
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Night Spawn
New Member
USA
37 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2002 : 16:15:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
How can you complain that other people don't believe your myth and then declare that they do believe?
Please point out where I've complained because someone doesn't believe what I believe...your immaturity complains about itself.
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I don't believe this fairy tale and, by what you've written, neither do you.
Hmmm...so, I do believe, but I don't believe? lol
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In Matthew Jesus says again and again that hell is a fiery furnace. You say no, it's just separation from god. So you don't believe what it says.
what does this have to do with the topic at hand? You continue to type pointless, irrelevant replies....
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Genesis says a "day". You say, no, a thousand years. So you don't believe what it says.
tsk, tsk...you like to lie, huh? What I did was type down other alternatives which make more sense to me.
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Genesis says that god punishes Adam and Eve for gaining the knowledge of good and evil. You say, no, they already knew the difference between good and evil. So again you don't believe what it says.
Once against...another lie*sigh*
I said that they made a choice...that's it. Your continuing to type things that I didn't type.
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To cap it off you say that god speaks directly to you which is such an enormous blasphemy that the historic christian church would have burned you alive for even saying it.
lol...no they wouldn't. God 'speaks' to all christians.
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So you really mustn't believe or you wouldn't commit such a mortal sin.
name the sin....
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Contrary to "everybody believing something," you've demonstrated that nobody could possibly believe this myth. You certainly don't.
Once again...assuming stuff without my typing that stuff....not very scientific of you*
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You rewrite it at will to mean whatever you want it to mean. That's not belief, that's self indulgence.
You take it how you want to and I take it how I want to...quit whining.
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2002 : 16:18:03 [Permalink]
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If you are in school, and you are taking a logic class, no matter what you do don't let your teacher see these posts!
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Night Spawn
New Member
USA
37 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2002 : 16:19:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
If a child is born with severe brain damage( brain damage is another one of God's "gifts".) Unable to beg forgiveness, being that his "gift" makes him unable to eat and breath on his own, let alone ask anyone for anything. When that child dies he goes to hell, cause of course he is such a bad person for just existing, and never asking, I mean begging to be forgiven, how dare he defy God!
I don't need any further evidence of God's justness and love! Sign me up!
Different subjects arise on these boards without even staying on the original subject. Oh well...it doesn't say that anywhere in the Bible and I don't see the point in it at all....
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