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Night Spawn
New Member
USA
37 Posts |
 Posted - 04/28/2002 : 16:19:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
If you are in school, and you are taking a logic class, no matter what you do don't let your teacher see these posts!
yessa masta charlie...would you like some water too?
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2002 : 16:45:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
yessa masta charlie...would you like some water too?
So you don't confine your bigotry to religion but include race too.
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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Night Spawn
New Member
USA
37 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2002 : 17:27:01 [Permalink]
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quote:
So you don't confine your bigotry to religion but include race too.
why, masta slata!! How can you talk to such a humble servant like that? Would you like some kool-aid masta slata? Sugar included or not?
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2002 : 17:39:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
PhDreamer:
quote:
I had considered you might be able to pick out the implied premises. No matter; this syllogism sums up your position:
Let God be an omnipotent, omnibenevolent, omniscient being.
P1) God created all that exists except for God
P2) God can alter his creation in any meaningful way
P3) God is the ultimate judge of universal good and evil
P3) Any of God's creations will have maximum intrinsic goodness or will lead to increased overall goodness
P4) God created universe A with free will
C1) God could not have created universe A without free will
C1 is false because it does not follow from the premises. It is simply a statement of incredulity. There is no reason God could not have created a universe without the freedom to choose evil. If you claim there is a reason, then you eliminate omnipotence. The best you can do is say God told you in your dreams this free will universe has the maximum amount of possible good. And that's poor reasoning, at best.
If you believe my reasoning is poor, then show me how...thanks
Pardon? This is the second time you've asked this and I'm not going to go to any greater lengths to show you. What I've written is more than sufficient.
quote:
I disagree and don't see the point in naming some of those premises(it not all of them)
If you wish to have a discussion with me about it, you're going to have to tell me exactly why you disagree.
quote:
Also, your C1 is falsely typed. My example and my replies read that God chooses not to create a universe without free will. If I have typed that God can't, then I am wrong(i don't believe I have, though...). I also explained why God chose to do that...
Which is what my objection was about in the first place. Once more: If God gets to arbitrarily choose what is good and evil, why doesn't he just create a world where evil as he labels it doesn't exist? Is he only acting according to his nature? If so, is it possible for him to act against his nature? If not, you have another free will dilemma.
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So he really does answer questions you ask him? Are there limits to what you may ask?
I ask according to what I need help with understanding. I don't believe there are limits...some answers may seem un-reliable or not good enough to disbelievers, but that's what separates disbelievers from believers.
Isn't there something you could ask him that no one else could possibly know that can be experimentally verified? Maybe the process of cold fusion?
Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.
-D. Hume |
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Night Spawn
New Member
USA
37 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2002 : 17:46:49 [Permalink]
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PhDreamer:
quote:
Pardon? This is the second time you've asked this and I'm not going to go to any greater lengths to show you. What I've written is more than sufficient.
quote:
night spawn:
I disagree and don't see the point in naming some of those premises(it not all of them)
PhDreamer:
If you wish to have a discussion with me about it, you're going to have to tell me exactly why you disagree
According to your first quote...why should I? You won't do the same for me.
quote:
Which is what my objection was about in the first place. Once more: If God gets to arbitrarily choose what is good and evil, why doesn't he just create a world where evil as he labels it doesn't exist? Is he only acting according to his nature? If so, is it possible for him to act against his nature? If not, you have another free will dilemma.
I have already explained this....once again....I don't feel it is my job to search for it, because you should have read it. I believe I typed it up more than once.
quote:
quote:
So he really does answer questions you ask him? Are there limits to what you may ask?
[quote]Isn't there something you could ask him that no one else could possibly know that can be experimentally verified? Maybe the process of cold fusion?
The question is: Why would I want to ask him about that? It doesn't help my relationship with him at all...
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LordofEntropy
Skeptic Friend
USA
85 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2002 : 18:25:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
Different subjects arise on these boards without even staying on the original subject. Oh well...it doesn't say that anywhere in the Bible and I don't see the point in it at all....
This is what you said from one of your earlier posts:
quote:
Since we are all sinners, the bad things happening to these people could just as easily happen to us. Therefore, Jesus tells us to repent or we, too, will perish.
Now let's put that question in eternal perspective, and look at the question of this thread: "How can a loving God send people to Hell?"
Knowing what Jesus taught, we can see that the real question should be turned around to "How can a just God allow people into Heaven?"
The fact is that we all deserve Hell. We have all sinned. Is is precisely because God is loving and merciful that some of us will be spared that destiny.
I have more entertaining and less contradictory fiction I prefer to read, so I'm somewhat vague on the bible. However you claim to be in the know, so since you posted the text above I'm taking your word on it.
So according to you, the child in my post would goto hell being that he is incapable of repenting, but he is by default a sinner. It has everything to do with this topic, we were dicussing the premise of hell, beginning with the analogy.
So again I say, sounds like a loving and merciful God to me! Sign me up!
Entropy just isn't what it used to be. |
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Night Spawn
New Member
USA
37 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2002 : 18:29:56 [Permalink]
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LordofEntropy:
quote:
So according to you, the child in my post would goto hell being that he is incapable of repenting, but he is by default a sinner. It has everything to do with this topic, we were dicussing the premise of hell, beginning with the analogy.
So again I say, sounds like a loving and merciful God to me! Sign me up!
So, again I say...give me a scripture which says that people whom CAN'T repent(not dont repent) will go to hell. I have a little brother like this and I believe he is going to go to heaven.
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LordofEntropy
Skeptic Friend
USA
85 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2002 : 19:00:15 [Permalink]
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Again I'm not quoting scripture, I don't read it, I am quoting you.
quote:
So, again I say...give me a scripture which says that people whom CAN'T repent(not dont repent) will go to hell. I have a little brother like this and I believe he is going to go to heaven.
YOU posted this earlier:
quote:
Since we are all sinners, the bad things happening to these people could just as easily happen to us. Therefore, Jesus tells us to repent or we, too, will perish.
Now let's put that question in eternal perspective, and look at the question of this thread: "How can a loving God send people to Hell?"
Knowing what Jesus taught, we can see that the real question should be turned around to "How can a just God allow people into Heaven?"
The fact is that we all deserve Hell. We have all sinned. Is is precisely because God is loving and merciful that some of us will be spared that destiny.
So either your statement that we all are sinners and deserve hell is false, so the child who dies who doesn't repent isn't a sinner and wouldn't go to hell.
- Or -
My statement that a child who dies who hasn't repented whether by choice or inability will go to hell. Because, he is a sinner and has not repented, must be true.
I guess there might be a third option; God just plays favorites, you get in if he likes you, or collect enough money for him from his followers. I hear God likes big stain glass windows and gold domed temples alot.
Sounds like a loving and just God to me! Sign me up!
Entropy just isn't what it used to be. |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2002 : 19:29:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
PhDreamer:
quote:
Pardon? This is the second time you've asked this and I'm not going to go to any greater lengths to show you. What I've written is more than sufficient.
quote:
night spawn:
I disagree and don't see the point in naming some of those premises(it not all of them)
PhDreamer:
If you wish to have a discussion with me about it, you're going to have to tell me exactly why you disagree
According to your first quote...why should I? You won't do the same for me.
*Sigh*
Very well, what specific things about my doctrinal disagreements with you would you like me to elucidate?
quote:
quote:
Which is what my objection was about in the first place. Once more: If God gets to arbitrarily choose what is good and evil, why doesn't he just create a world where evil as he labels it doesn't exist? Is he only acting according to his nature? If so, is it possible for him to act against his nature? If not, you have another free will dilemma.
I have already explained this....once again....I don't feel it is my job to search for it, because you should have read it. I believe I typed it up more than once.
Look, I'm just a guy, but I read well and I have above average intelligence. As far as I can see, all you've said so far is that God made a choice. I'm trying to understand the parameters by which God made that choice. If you've already answered my specific questions, then please forgive me when I ask that you repost them with context (humor me, ok?).
quote:
quote:
Isn't there something you could ask him that no one else could possibly know that can be experimentally verified? Maybe the process of cold fusion?
The question is: Why would I want to ask him about that? It doesn't help my relationship with him at all...
Well, since you're bothering to come to our neighborhood simply to engage us in apologetics, I figured if you had the chance to shut us up once and for all, you might do so the simplest way possible. Perhaps I'm thinking too logically again?
Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.
-D. Hume
Edited by - PhDreamer on 04/28/2002 19:30:25
<Hulk have formatting problems! Hulk smash!>
Edited by - PhDreamer on 04/28/2002 19:31:26 |
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Night Spawn
New Member
USA
37 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2002 : 19:39:50 [Permalink]
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Lordofentropy:
quote:
you quoted me to have typed:
Since we are all sinners, the bad things happening to these people could just as easily happen to us. Therefore, Jesus tells us to repent or we, too, will perish.
As I said before, where's a scripture where it says that those whom CAN'T repent will perish...not those whom can choose to repent.
Also, what illness or sickness are you talking about?
PhDreamer:
quote:
*Sigh*
Very well, what specific things about my doctrinal disagreements with you would you like me to elucidate?
Most likely, the ones I've been explaining over and over....I'm not your "post-keeper"*sigh*
quote:
Look, I'm just a guy, but I read well and I have above average intelligence. As far as I can see, all you've said so far is that God made a choice. I'm trying to understand the parameters by which God made that choice. If you've already answered my specific questions, then please forgive me when I ask that you repost them with context (humor me, ok?).
As I typed above...I'm not your "post-keeper". You can humor yourself by looking them up yourself(timmy's not a secretary). If you can read so well, then how could you have skipped it? Hmmmm....
quote:
Well, since you're bothering to come to our neighborhood simply to engage us in apologetics, I figured if you had the chance to shut us up once and for all, you might do so the simplest way possible. Perhaps I'm thinking too logically again?
What are you talking about "shut us up once and for all"?
Also, I thought I was here talking about Hell.
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2002 : 20:34:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
PhDreamer:
quote:
*Sigh*
Very well, what specific things about my doctrinal disagreements with you would you like me to elucidate?
Most likely, the ones I've been explaining over and over....I'm not your "post-keeper"*sigh*
I'm sorry, but I am very irritated at this point. You have done nothing like this at all. All you have done is tell me repeatedly that I haven't actually written what I have written. One more post like this from you Spawn, and I'm not going to be responsible for what I say.
quote:
quote:
Look, I'm just a guy, but I read well and I have above average intelligence. As far as I can see, all you've said so far is that God made a choice. I'm trying to understand the parameters by which God made that choice. If you've already answered my specific questions, then please forgive me when I ask that you repost them with context (humor me, ok?).
As I typed above...I'm not your "post-keeper". You can humor yourself by looking them up yourself(timmy's not a secretary). If you can read so well, then how could you have skipped it? Hmmmm....
Exactly. I haven't skipped it. It's not there. You really haven't said anything other than, "God chose x." Really.
quote:
quote:
Well, since you're bothering to come to our neighborhood simply to engage us in apologetics, I figured if you had the chance to shut us up once and for all, you might do so the simplest way possible. Perhaps I'm thinking too logically again?
What are you talking about "shut us up once and for all"?
I mean, show us something we can't show is equally well, or better explained by naturalism.
quote:
Also, I thought I was here talking about Hell.
If you wish to answer in a new thread, I have no objection.
Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.
-D. Hume
<formatting hell>
Edited by - PhDreamer on 04/28/2002 20:35:50 |
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Night Spawn
New Member
USA
37 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2002 : 20:40:42 [Permalink]
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I'm sorry, but I am very irritated at this point.
If I couldn't remember certain things, I'd be irritated at myself too...calm down charlie.
quote:
You have done nothing like this at all. All you have done is tell me repeatedly that I haven't actually written what I have written. One more post like this from you Spawn, and I'm not going to be responsible for what I say.
You asked for which ones...what do I look like? I'm not your secretary, you can look at the past posts yourself. I don't feel like re-reading 5 pages of posts. You're fault not mine.
Also, feel free to say whatever you like. I can already tell that immaturity is common here.
quote:
Exactly. I haven't skipped it.
yes you have
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It's not there. You really haven't said anything other than, "God chose x." Really.
no i haven't....
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I mean, show us something we can't show is equally well, or better explained by naturalism.
what does that have to do with the subject at hand?
quote:
If you wish to answer in a new thread, I have no objection.
what are you talking about?
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2002 : 20:58:20 [Permalink]
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Spawn,
You have now worn out your welcome with me. I am going to talk to your programmer in the morning and let him know his creation has acheived the mental status of a 6-year-old. I hope he'll figure out a way to code maturity and reason, but I'm not holding my breath.
Best,
Jason
Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.
-D. Hume |
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Night Spawn
New Member
USA
37 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2002 : 21:24:37 [Permalink]
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Does this mean we aren't friends anymore?
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2002 : 22:39:40 [Permalink]
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Night Spawn, are you trying to use all of these http://www.skepticfriends.org/forum/link.asp?TOPIC_ID=572 or is it just happening naturally?
Don't think you are the first to employ these tactics nor will you be the last but we are so used to it we have categorized them.
Congratulations. You have mastered #11.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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