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Cold in here
New Member
Canada
48 Posts |
 Posted - 05/28/2003 : 07:46:31 [Permalink]
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1) I couldn't agree more with Snake on the language issue. It is entirely unfair to favour ESL students by singling them out. In Ontario (our provinces have their own Ministries of Education) students who don't speak english well are identified to the faculty as ESL (english second language). They are taught in english and if they have difficulty the concepts are explained with more clarity IN ENGLISH. And this works rather well; as the ESL students are placed with regular classes, they don't feel any different. Also they learn to understand how to think and create in english. Further more, ALL students, english and ESL are taught french up to grade 4, or to grade 13 (now 12) if they choose French Immersion.
2) Back to the point, I would be inclined to say that video games can be a very dangerous thing. Children aren't getting out like they used to, and quite frankly, North America has an obesity problem. The schools need to place more emphasis on Phys. Ed in the younger grades, get the children more active. Children are able to think much more quickly than their parents as a result of video games, but I wouldn't say they can think as well in real life situations. But then, this is certainly turning out to be a "virtual" world isn't it? Reality TV anyone? |
Toronto is the capital of Canada, and I live in a giant igloo. Blubber anyone? |
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Computer Org
Skeptic Friend
392 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2003 : 06:29:47 [Permalink]
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Snake?? Digging into a hole and hiding your head (--as in see no budget-crunch, hear no budget-crunch, etc.--) won't help.
I first ran accross the grim failures of education in the winter of 1975-76 when, one cold Sunday morning, I listened to the chief of the Missouri educational system on a pannel talk-show discussing the shameful state of education in both Kansas and Missouri. Twenty-five years ago!!
The educational systems across the Union have not gotten better over the past 25 years; they have only gotten [MUCH] more expensive. It's time to take innovative approaches: NOW, before the disintegrating economy causes draconian things such as San Diego has recently been forced into enacting.
My opinion, anyway. |
Do thou amend thy face, and I'll amend my life. --Falstaff |
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Cold in here
New Member
Canada
48 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2003 : 17:53:48 [Permalink]
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Right, we can't hide the fact that the budgets are increasingly losing their power, but we also need to examine the fact that there are things that can be done to increase the budget i.e. taxes or spending less money on war  $US63 Billion would buy a few new textbooks for certain. As far as quality is concerned, I must say that the quality of Ontario education has diminished slighty since the Harris government, but has increased overall quite dramatically in the last century. |
Toronto is the capital of Canada, and I live in a giant igloo. Blubber anyone? |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2003 : 23:17:02 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Computer Org
Snake?? Digging into a hole and hiding your head (--as in see no budget-crunch, hear no budget-crunch, etc.--) won't help.
I don't know what you mean by that.
quote:
I first ran accross the grim failures of education in the winter of 1975-76 when, one cold Sunday morning, I listened to the chief of the Missouri educational system on a pannel talk-show discussing the shameful state of education in both Kansas and Missouri. Twenty-five years ago!!
Actually long before that I used to vote for all the bond issues that were supposed to help the schools and for several years I kept voting for them, thinking they WERE helping. My child started going to school just about that time you mentioned, ('73, I think), so I've been noticing a decline for a long time too, when programs and subjects were cut. The money we (THE TAX PAYERS) have been putting in has done nothing, from what I've seen. Then when my kid was in Jr. High they started the state lottery, money that was supposed to go to the schools. My child kept telling me she wondered where the money was going because she saw no improvements either.
quote:
The educational systems across the Union have not gotten better over the past 25 years; they have only gotten [MUCH] more expensive. It's time to take innovative approaches: NOW, before the disintegrating economy causes draconian things such as San Diego has recently been forced into enacting.
My opinion, anyway.
So you see, I also agree with you, it is worse but where has all that money we've been putting in going? The ones in charge of it need to account for the waste. All they do is ask for more money but nothing happens and I refuse to vote for bond issues until they learn how to bugget better. It's not all that more expensive, they don't know what they are doing. I watch the school board meeting on TV here in Los Angeles, it's such a joke.
BTW, what is happening in San Diego? |
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Computer Org
Skeptic Friend
392 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2003 : 07:05:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Snake
quote:
Originally posted by Computer Org
Snake?? Digging into a hole and hiding your head (--as in see no budget-crunch, hear no budget-crunch, etc.--) won't help.
I don't know what you mean by that.
Aha. Here are two earlier posts by me----mostly responding to your post on page 1:
quote:
Originally posted by Computer Org
quote:
Originally posted by Snake
quote:
Originally posted by Computer Org
Nothing too new in this idea: I learned to count by using number-groups ("Need 5: There's 2 spaces and there's 3 spaces...."  ) playing my Mother in Parchesee and Canasta and how to conive and crook playing my friends in Monopoly.
Now then: I've played DooM.x, Quake.x, Heretic.x, Hexen.x, Warcraft.x, Heroes.x, and others and so am not knocking Video Games but . . . . . Wouldn't it be great if there were VideoGames as much fun as the FPS "Kill-them-Dead's" but which educated as well as did Parchesee, Canasta, and Monopoly?
Nothing wrong with games of any sort. I don't know for sure but I would think computer games are good for hand/eye cordination just as when I was a volunteer in my kids kindergarden class and the teacher told me to go out side and throw the ball with them and run through tires on the ground, for their gross motor skills. I object to sports figures making so much money and possibly sending a message to kids that they don't have to study academics to live in this world. Not just memorizing but knowing and understanding facts and history.
Along with games/sports, schools should not be eliminating art either. Music and fine art are more ways to learn many things beyond the subject matter. Counting and science for example, and observation and reasoning IMO.
I have to admit that my hand/eye coordination skills are marginal and playing computer-games didn't improve them much.
Starting with the id game right before DooM, "modern" computer games were designed more as analytical processes---you get plenty of action but tactics, and even strategy, are much more important than the ability to quickly point-and-shoot. It's this aspect of computer gaming that made me think of gaming-style software as an adjunct (--or even a replacement!--) for fat-cating, marginally subject-matter-competent teachers.
I admit that my view is not a popular one nor a widespread one. Nonetheless, with school budgets skyrocketing and the tax-base threatening to shrivel, this might be the time to add interesting software platforms as a teaching-resource.
And then, at the bottom of page 2, there was this:
quote:
Originally posted by Computer Org
quote:
Originally posted by Snake
IMO, you lack experience and not knowing YOU that's what I 'hear' in your post.
Awww, Snake. I was being polite, not wanting to get in between you and Kil. But: Hear, hear! Your bickering is, if anything, the hijack of this thread. (  )
My original post was the second one to the thread and was directly addressing the topic. But you never even responded to my just-posted response to your much-earlier comment-----choosing, it seems, to prefer bickering over substance. 
As to "lack of experience", I admit that I've never taught in elementary or high school but I have taught in two different colleges (one an Army college and one a "Big 10" university).
About 16 years ago when I decided to run for public office ("Put up or shut up."), I first tried the local "Board of Education" and when that didn't seem right, I ran for the Legislature with my main platform-plank being Education.
Well, anyway, I tried.
"Better to have tried and failed than to have never tried at all."
Voila! Now then:
quote:
I first ran accross the grim failures of education in the winter of 1975-76 when, one cold Sunday morning, I listened to the chief of the Missouri educational system on a pannel talk-show discussing the shameful state of education in both Kansas and Missouri. Twenty-five years ago!!
Actually long before that I used to vote for all the bond issues that were supposed to help the schools and for several years I kept voting for them, thinking they WERE helping. My child started going to school just about that time you mentioned, ('73, I think), so I've been noticing a decline for a long time too, when programs and subjects were cut. The money we (THE TAX PAYERS) have been putting in has done nothing, from what I've seen. Then when my kid was in Jr. High they started the state lottery, money that was supposed to go to the schools. My child kept telling me she wondered where the money was going because she saw no improvements either.
quote:
The educational systems across the Union have not gotten better over the past 25 years; they have only gotten [MUCH] more expensive. It's time to take innovative approaches: NOW, before the disintegrating economy causes draconian things such as San Diego has recently been forced into enacting.
My opinion, anyway.
So you see, I also agree with you, (Orgy-Porgy expresses feelings of intellectual contentment.), it is worse but where has all that money we've been putting in going? The ones in charge of it need to account for the waste. All they do is ask for more money but nothing happens and I refuse to vote for bond issues until they learn how to bugget better. It's not all that more expensive, they don't know what they are doing. I watch the school board meeting on TV here in Los Angeles, it's such a joke.
BTW, what is happening in San Diego?
It would be a j |
Do thou amend thy face, and I'll amend my life. --Falstaff |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2003 : 15:52:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Computer Org
It would be a joke if it weren't so, so very serious.
 Life IS a joke, but then that's another story.
I just wanted to acknowledge your effort of going back and forth printing all of who said what. I don't have time to follow it and it gets a bit confussing.
Thank you anyway.
Perhaps if this headack and pain ever goes away, I expect sometime next week and I don't have much else to do I'll try reading all of that. LOL, it will probably give me another headack.
Later,
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Computer Org
Skeptic Friend
392 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2003 : 08:51:47 [Permalink]
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By Snake: "I don't have time to follow it and it gets a bit confussing. Thank you anyway."
Don't read it until I edit it to make it clearer and and easier to follow. It's not really worth reading anyway--was just trying to gather scattered pieces into one place.
Was only trying to say, Snake, that business-as-usual-style 'education' can't be allowed to go on. HUGE changes in the entire system are needed.
I was only proposing that computerized gaming might be one possible alternative (cheap and effective; plus the kids love them).
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Do thou amend thy face, and I'll amend my life. --Falstaff |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2003 : 00:11:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Computer Org
Was only trying to say, Snake, that business-as-usual-style 'education' can't be allowed to go on. HUGE changes in the entire system are needed.
Are we supposed to be on opposit sides of a debate here, honey? 'Cause I agree with you.
quote:
I was only proposing that computerized gaming might be one possible alternative (cheap and effective; plus the kids love them).
Effective, probably. Cheap....I don't know. LOL, if the government has anything to do with it, the cost that ordinary people pay would be quadrippled when the the board of education puts it in the budget.
A thought.... could the B of E be lowering the standards or not letting the kids learn enough because they don't want anyone to find out how stupid they are? |
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Computer Org
Skeptic Friend
392 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2003 : 06:39:38 [Permalink]
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No, sorry, Snake. We were never in a debate in this thread; you are, perhaps, thinking of you and Kil. (  )
The point I tried to make way back in response to your-----awww, well. Here is a regurgitation of that wee post:quote:
Originally posted by Org the Astute:
Nothing too new in this idea: I learned to count by using number-groups ("Need 5: There's 2 spaces and there's 3 spaces...." ) playing my Mother in Parchesee and Canasta and how to conive and crook playing my friends in Monopoly.
Now then: I've played DooM.x, Quake.x, Heretic.x, Hexen.x, Warcraft.x, Heroes.x, and others and so am not knocking Video Games but . . . . . Wouldn't it be great if there were Video and ComputerGames as much fun as the FPS (FirstPersonShooter) "Kill-them-Dead's" but which educated as well as did the old-style games Parchesee, Canasta, and Monopoly?
But when you responded to this thought with a mere "Nothing wrong with games of any sort.", I tried again with:quote:
A come-back from Computer Org:
<snip>
Starting with the id game right before DooM, "modern" computer games were designed more as analytical processes---you get plenty of action but tactics, and even strategy, are much more important than the ability to quickly point-and-shoot. It's this aspect of computer gaming that made me think of gaming-style software as an adjunct (--or even as a replacement!--) for fat-cating, marginally subject-matter-competent teachers.
I admit that my view is not a popular one nor a widespread one. Nonetheless, with school budgets skyrocketing and the tax-base threatening to shrivel, this might be the time to add interesting software platforms as a teaching-resource.
And here's the thing: Computer gaming is a well-developed industry and already includes a lot of brain-twisters to make it interesting.
But that's exactly what education is supposed to do----and, IIRC, used to do before it became 'beauracritized'.
Fifty bucks per course (--that's what they charge now for a game)?? Sounds pretty inexpensive to me----and with a LOT better learning-quality.
_______________________________________
Ammended/edited to add the following:
 Snake! I just noticed that you have, as of this moment, posted exactly 1968 posts. As a year, that was for me:- The best of years---the year I got back from Viet Nam
- The worst of years---the year I started grad school
- The most pitiful of years---the year I traded in my trusty, rusty VW Beetle for a zinging, zooming Porche
- The greatest of years---the year I discovered Statistics and Probability from one each Dr. Harshany from Iowa State, World-renouned for excellence in Applied Statistics.
Ah. 1968! What a year!!
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Do thou amend thy face, and I'll amend my life. --Falstaff |
| Edited by - Computer Org on 06/27/2003 08:55:10 |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2003 : 23:44:01 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Computer Org
No, sorry, Snake. We were never in a debate in this thread; you are, perhaps, thinking of you and Kil. ( )
He lives to debate me. Or should I say laugh at my logic.
Oh, Kil, he loves the agrument.
quote:
Ammended/edited to add the following:
Snake! I just noticed that you have, as of this moment, posted exactly 1968 posts. As a year, that was for me:- The best of years---the year I got back from Viet Nam
- The worst of years---the year I started grad school
- The most pitiful of years---the year I traded in my trusty, rusty VW Beetle for a zinging, zooming Porche
- The greatest of years---the year I discovered Statistics and Probability from one each Dr. Harshany from Iowa State, World-renouned for excellence in Applied Statistics.
Ah. 1968! What a year!!
Isn't it funny that you should mention years. I too noticed each time I posted recently how it reminded me of the history of that year. I tried to stop (and give it a rest), so my last post would stay a certain year but couldn't resist opening my big mouth.
Yes, for me everything from '64 to '75 had various milestones. '68 had it's moments too.
Do you remember the song 'I Can See Clearly Now...the rain is gone', it was around that time (give or take a couple of years) and had a lot of meaning for me. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2003 : 09:17:14 [Permalink]
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quote:
Snake: He lives to debate me. Or should I say laugh at my logic.
Oh, Kil, he loves the agrument.
What logic? |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2003 : 09:51:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
quote:
Snake: He lives to debate me. Or should I say laugh at my logic.
Oh, Kil, he loves the agrument.
What logic?
Computer Org, Well.......
Did I tell you?
You see! How about that saying, With friends like that....etc., etc.
Anyhow......
There are some posts on this website, in various folders, where the people seem to be a little too serious.
Life is a game, no point in getting over excited about something that is out of our control.
For example, the school board. Those idiots have blinders on, talk about logic, THEY are the ones who don't have any. They are going to do what they want no matter what the public thinks or says or trys to do.
Stating ones opinions and asking them to change is fine if one wants to believe what he says is making some difference but IMO it won't matter.
Read the last of line of 'Man and Superman' by GBS
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2003 : 20:02:38 [Permalink]
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Computer Org wrote:quote:
Ah. 1968! What a year!!
It seems that nobody invited me to all the fun.
Oh riiight: I was two. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2003 : 23:32:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Computer Org wrote:quote:
Ah. 1968! What a year!!
It seems that nobody invited me to all the fun.
Oh riiight: I was two.
I'm so sorry for you Dave. Having had to grow up with a generation and world that's been going 'down hill' in knowledge and ethics since just around the time you were born.
Well there's always hope!
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2003 : 08:03:23 [Permalink]
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Snake wrote:quote:
I'm so sorry for you Dave. Having had to grow up with a generation and world that's been going 'down hill' in knowledge and ethics since just around the time you were born.
Lucky for me, I've seen enough and know enough history to be able to think that every generation thinks that same thing about the next generation. Especially when it's not my generation's ethics one calls into question when looking at scandals like Enron.
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- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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