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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
 Posted - 07/24/2001 : 08:51:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
ooooooooo that's pretty low TD.. Wicca doesn't have subscription fees to reach 'levels' at least!
I was comparing them on the basis of both being made-up religions. The actual "religions" themselves are very different, of course!
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Ma gavte la nata! |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2001 : 09:51:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
Hi,
Please don't flame me, I was young and stupid--but from high school and college on, I was involved in this Goddess-based, nature worshipping and "magick" hoodoo for a number of years. (You'd be surprised how many are)
Then I grew up and I realized what a crock it all is! I am just wondering if there is anyone else out there with similiar opinions. Or who has even gone through the same experience.
Having been there,I am scratching my head at how many athiests laugh at the idea of God but make allowances for a system that worships Him/Her/They/It and nature itself.
Trust me, when someone feels a need to cross the line between mythology and reality ITS ALL THE SAME!
Neo-Paganism is a broad term that encompasses many groups. But the basic premise is the same: self-defined morality, no written rules, total vagueness on any generally accepted beliefs, except they believe in the Spirit World/Astral Plane, and the ability to influence events with "magick."
There are also no set standards to meet--like in mainstream religion where not anyone can just walk into Church and declare themselves a Priest.
I am sooo embarassed to admit that I used the term "Witch," but take refuge in the fact that many others use terms like this. You may have heard of the Wiccans, who also call themselves "Witches." This is a pretty popular modern religion now--Wicca.
Sadly many Wiccans still believe that it is based on ancient teachings when it is really the product of a 1950's mailman named Gardner who cashed in on people's need for alternative spirituality. Check out an article called "The Goddess and the Scholars"--it will come up in a search.
You also run into some buffoons who call themselves "magickians" and "wizards" (etc)Out of the literally hundreds of people I met who used these types of terms, about 3 were seriously trained and educated in their "magick."
The rest read a few too many books at Barnes and Nobles then assigned themselves lofty titles. It must be nice to feel you have that much influence in the Universe when your own life is less than fulfulling.
May I share a list of my observations that were gleaned from my experience. Not all may agree and it will piss Neo-Pagans off, but this what *I* learned after many years of being immersed in Neo-Paganism:
1) A politically-based movemant--quite feminist and "Green" ..and overall, extremely liberal. And extreme politics is often the underlying motivation.
2) The majority attracted to Neo-Paganism as a backlash against Christianity and/or the conventional culture around them.
3) Attractive to and open to a fringe element-- meaning not everyone is as innocent, positive and healing motivated as many Pagans tout themselves to be.
4) Superstitious, same New Age quackery applies
5) Heaviely commercialized. Generic Pagan authors like Crowley peddling to gullible people who are not questioning the "information." (Or at least trying to BALANCE the "information" with other sources)
6) DROVES of teenagers getting a charge out of their immature, rebellious years. (Some "adults" who never ended those years!)
7) If you study Paganism long enough--just read a few Pagan forums-you won't be able to escape the Pagan Pity Party as I call it. Someone needs to tell these people that the stake and bake days have been over for a few centuries.
Before anyone out there screams at my insensitivity---to talk with a group of Pagans you would think they have been the only group in history that has ever been persecuted. Or the only group out there that has had any form of trouble today.
Being Pagan, you can't escape some of this "witch burning" days melodrama. But some of this is loaded with a healthy dose of not having researched all the facts.
Instead, plenty of people I saw had a victim complex and got petty fuel from the never-ending stance of Christian=TOTALLY EVIL vs us the eternal victims.
Well I guess I am done! Sheesh, I am sure glad to share this among skeptics--I really needed to get it off my chest.
I have heard some skeptics say things like: "well Neo-Paganism would be a better way to run the government because its more open than Christianity."
Trust me, I'm no fan of Christianity or any form of religion really, but Neo-Pagans running government affairs...NOT!!!!!
OK. Now a response from the resident Wiccan.
I'm sorry that you tried Wicca and didn't find a reputable group. I've been practicing for 12 years now and it has been very fulfilling for me. Whoever taught you that the religion was directly decended from the "old religions" was full of it. Gerald Gardner was following the ways of the "Golden Dawn" movement around 1900. Alistar Crowley was a contemporary. I fear you judge us based on the work of charlitans. That's sort of like judging Christianity based on Televangelists and Faith healers. In any population there are about 5% of very vocal/visible people that most practioners of a faith wish would go away. Chrisendom has Jim Bakker and Jim Jones. Wicca has the "Psychic" Tarot readers. Allow me to respond to your points.
1) Wicca is not a political movement. If it was, we would have candidates.
2) The majority of practioners of Wicca are drawn to it like any other religion. It's something that feels right inside.
3) You get that with many other religious groups as well. David Koresh and the Taliban come to mind.
4) There is a renewed interest in herbalism. Herbs help, they are not a replacement for modern medicine.
5) These are source books. If you are looking for the "Bible" for Wiccans, you won't find one. It still teaches ethics. Groups (or covens if you like) conduct religious instruction.
6) Would you lump Fundamentalist Christians into the same group? All member groups of COG (Covenant of the Goddess) refuse teenage members without parental permission.
7) Some people have been caught up in the "Burning times". Which, BTW, has been researched by COG and found to be not as bad as first thought. If you talk to some people of Jewish desent, you get the same attitude. Again, we are talking about the noisy great minority.
For a differing opinion please check out http://www.cog.org
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sarahbear
New Member
9 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2001 : 10:34:01 [Permalink]
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Thanks again--I am really enjoying this exchange.
But I KNEW it wouldn't be too long before a Wiccan entered! I am not here to offend any group-but I have a right to my opinions and experiences. Which in this case are based on first-hand knowledge. Many skeptics come from religious/spiritual backgrounds--this route was mine, maybe not someone else's.
First, I have met many truly wonderful Wiccans and other Neo-Pagans. I still have Pagan acquaintences and one of the persons closest to me is one--but he is rare in that he has thoroughly trained, studied and researched paganism for many years without the garbage that many get caught up in. There are pagans like that.
And I have met many wonderful Christians and Skeptics too--people are people no matter what beliefs/groups they subsribe to. No one is morally superior.
But I don't personally find a lot of points in the Wiccan note to be valid. Please, I am not here to enter a flame war--and will leave if it becomes that petty. Differences of opinions are needed in this world, or we would all be clones.
I am not here to debate, I am so sick of debating things with Neo-Pagans who think they are so damn open but attack people who have issues with Paganism. I had a lot to get out of my system, that is why my note was so venting.
I am not going to drone on and on about each point, that I, someone who once defended the Pagan side and was once on the inside track don't agree with.
Suffice it to say, there are good and bad elements to every group.
But just to share my responses to a few. You are quite right that some Wiccan groups still teach ethics, etc. There is still no organization and standards so each group differs quite a lot in some cases.
Also of course not all Neo-Pagans are Wiccans either. There is no belief in real authority either--other than I guess coven leaders and such who may have a tendecy to get real power-hungry and grow large egos-and have no hierarchy for checks and balances.
I'm not saying I love authority, etc but I have seen first-hand many, many Pagans take that lack to the limit. I am not saying other more organized groups don't have their badasses too--but at least there are usually generally accepted standards to refer to where you can point out how someone has crossed the line. I don't care if its a Bible or whatnot.
All the Pagans I have known, and this was many because I hosted 15 pagan forums in my life, not to mention I founded many real-world pagan groups in my area and was a coven leader--had an "anything goes" attitude.
This is attractive to some, and probably why many teenagers enjoy it. But I'm afraid I learned that at some point, people abuse this kind of mentality.
As for lumping Pagans with fundies, etc. Well first off, there are loads of "Pagan fundies" out there. That is a term someone else coined, I will try to find her page.
All I am saying is that Neo-Paganism is no better than Christianity. And this statemant does not go over well.
The other stuff is my personal experience and opinions which I have as much right to as you have---learned that being open will always tick someone off.
Take Care,
Sarahbear
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sarahbear
New Member
9 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2001 : 10:48:09 [Permalink]
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Oops I wanted to clarify.
You don't need political candidates to have a strong political element. There are loads of Pagan activists. You don't have candidates because Neo-Paganism is so on the fringes that it would never get enough support for candidacy.
I wasn't taught that Wicca was based on an ancient religion, just said many Wiccans *themselves* still believe that and other fallacies.
And not saying the teachers are charlatons--I mean these people actually believed/believe in their teachings. So do the masses who accept them at first glance.
And although many Pagans feel on the same scale as the Holocaust, not sure most Jewish people would agree.
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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2001 : 10:51:55 [Permalink]
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Hi, Sarah, and welcome.
I, too, grew up in a religious household. I distanced myself from Roman Catholicism internally when I was still young, but it wasn't until I was much older that I had the courage to say out loud what I had been thinking and actually leave the fold.
And like you, I find some of the rituals comforting and pleasing; I still participate in the Christmas celebrations; I like to sing; I like the gift-giving; I REALLY like the parties...
Anyway, I'm posting because I think you may be falling into a trap that all of us do at one time or another. When we are still so emotionally close to a topic, we tend to take offense at the slightest differing viewpoint. I think you may have done this with Valiant Dancer. I'm not supporting paganism or Wicca (I've studied both, and if you include Carlos Castaneda then I've dabbled in it, too), but Valiant Dancer's posting seemed quite respectful, and I don't think he seemed offended by your posting--just disappointed that you had not found the same fulfillment in Wicca that he has.
Disagree by all means; that's what this board is for. But don't project intentions and attitudes on others that are, in fact, absent.
All that being said, I've enjoyed reading all of this thread. Please keep it up.
My kids still love me. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2001 : 10:56:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
Thanks again--I am really enjoying this exchange.
But I KNEW it wouldn't be too long before a Wiccan entered! I am not here to offend any group-but I have a right to my opinions and experiences. Which in this case are based on first-hand knowledge. Many skeptics come from religious/spiritual backgrounds--this route was mine, maybe not someone else's.
First, I have met many truly wonderful Wiccans and other Neo-Pagans. I still have Pagan acquaintences and one of the persons closest to me is one--but he is rare in that he has thoroughly trained, studied and researched paganism for many years without the garbage that many get caught up in. There are pagans like that.
And I have met many wonderful Christians and Skeptics too--people are people no matter what beliefs/groups they subsribe to. No one is morally superior.
But I don't personally find a lot of points in the Wiccan note to be valid. Please, I am not here to enter a flame war--and will leave if it becomes that petty. Differences of opinions are needed in this world, or we would all be clones.
I am not here to debate, I am so sick of debating things with Neo-Pagans who think they are so damn open but attack people who have issues with Paganism. I had a lot to get out of my system, that is why my note was so venting.
I am not going to drone on and on about each point, that I, someone who once defended the Pagan side and was once on the inside track don't agree with.
Suffice it to say, there are good and bad elements to every group.
But just to share my responses to a few. You are quite right that some Wiccan groups still teach ethics, etc. There is still no organization and standards so each group differs quite a lot in some cases.
Also of course not all Neo-Pagans are Wiccans either. There is no belief in real authority either--other than I guess coven leaders and such who may have a tendecy to get real power-hungry and grow large egos-and have no hierarchy for checks and balances.
I'm not saying I love authority, etc but I have seen first-hand many, many Pagans take that lack to the limit. I am not saying other more organized groups don't have their badasses too--but at least there are usually generally accepted standards to refer to where you can point out how someone has crossed the line. I don't care if its a Bible or whatnot.
All the Pagans I have known, and this was many because I hosted 15 pagan forums in my life, not to mention I founded many real-world pagan groups in my area and was a coven leader--had an "anything goes" attitude.
This is attractive to some, and probably why many teenagers enjoy it. But I'm afraid I learned that at some point, people abuse this kind of mentality.
As for lumping Pagans with fundies, etc. Well first off, there are loads of "Pagan fundies" out there. That is a term someone else coined, I will try to find her page.
All I am saying is that Neo-Paganism is no better than Christianity. And this statemant does not go over well.
The other stuff is my personal experience and opinions which I have as much right to as you have---learned that being open will always tick someone off.
Take Care,
Sarahbear
Sarahbear,
I completely agree that Neo-Paganism is no better (or worse) than Christianity. I also have met my share of Fundie Pagans. Oddly enough, the term fits them.
I just guess that the tone of your post seemed unfair to those Pagans who don't hold the beliefs of the visible minority. I don't agree with your characterization of the majority of Paganism, but I respect your right to it.
Also, when dealing with forums/the net you must see that the net's anonmity harbors the real nuts. (Take a look at the moon hoax conspiricists.) What I'm most concerned about is the activities of Rep. Barr. He has attempted in the past to outlaw the practice of Wicca in the military. With this as a basis, I am concerned that it may spread to the rest of the nation. And that, I believe, would be a bad thing.
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Kristin
Skeptic Friend
Canada
84 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2001 : 11:14:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
Oops I wanted to clarify.
You don't need political candidates to have a strong political element. There are loads of Pagan activists. You don't have candidates because Neo-Paganism is so on the fringes that it would never get enough support for candidacy.
Fringe politics unfortunately does exist. I dont think this qualifies as Neo-Paganism (and don't mean to lump Pagans in with the New Agers either) but your statement brought these guys to mind ;)
Here in Canada, we have a branch of the 'Natural Law Party'. Here's an excerpt from their website @ http://www.natural-law-party.org/:
Government free from problems
The most important principle in politics is that the success of government depends upon the quality of collective consciousness of all the people in society. If collective consciousness is stressed and incoherent, as it is now, the government is inevitably shrouded with problems. The first priority of the Natural Law Party will be to create a more orderly, harmonious, and positive society by establishing a group of 7,000 experts practising Maharishi's Transcendental Meditation and TM-Sidhi Programme, including the technique of Yogic Flying.
Apparantly yogic fliers can fix all society's problems. I guess. How does that balance our budget?
Good judgement comes from experience: experience comes from bad judgement. |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2001 : 11:42:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
including the technique of Yogic Flying.
hee hee, yogic flying is one of the funniest and most absurd things I've ever seen. When you think you've seen everything, take a look at these people hoping around on mats, giggling hysterically, and claiming that they are flying. It's enough to make you believe that there really is no end to nonsense.
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sarahbear
New Member
9 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2001 : 12:21:47 [Permalink]
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[quote]
Hi, Sarah, and welcome.
I, too, grew up in a religious household. I distanced myself from Roman Catholicism internally when I was still young, but it wasn't until I was much older that I had the courage to say out loud what I had been thinking and actually leave the fold.
And like you, I find some of the rituals comforting and pleasing; I still participate in the Christmas celebrations; I like to sing; I like the gift-giving; I REALLY like the parties...
Anyway, I'm posting because I think you may be falling into a trap that all of us do at one time or another. When we are still so emotionally close to a topic, we tend to take offense at the slightest differing viewpoint. I think you may have done this with Valiant Dancer. I'm not supporting but Valiant Dancer's posting seemed quite respectful, and I don't think he seemed offended by your posting--just disappointed that you had not found the same fulfillment in Wicca that he has.
Disagree by all means; that's what this board is for. But don't project intentions and attitudes on others that are, in fact, absent.
All that being said, I've enjoyed reading all of this thread. Please keep it up.
Hey,
I wish all of the Pagans I interacted with in a public forum were as respectful as Valiant. I am pretty disapointed myself that not all Pagans are capable of responding that way.
For the record, I did not take offense at Valiant's response and I don't think I am falling into a trap. I am passionate about this issue yes, and again sorry if it seems I was out to offend people. I am sorry if the aspects I disagreed with were put forth in a manner unacceptable to anyone here.
But please know my passion comes from my direct repeated experience after many years. Those intentions and attitudes may be absent from Valiant--as I do not know him/her. I did not project intentions and attitudes on Valiant personally, you are wrong to point the finger at me on that one.
By all means I know that other Pagans, not all as I have mentioned are like that, I am close to many Pagans. But those attitudes are out there and I have a right to address them.
You don't know ME and my true intentions and attitudes, which is so hard on a public board. And I understand the concept of supporting an on-line friend when you feel they were personally affronted.
Still, I think I will be leaving as I feel I have made the same mistake again. Which seems to be sharing my feelings on a public board among strangers.
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2001 : 12:37:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
Still, I think I will be leaving as I feel I have made the same mistake again. Which seems to be sharing my feelings on a public board among strangers.
I hope you reconsider. I don't think anyone was angry and may have just misintrepreted what you meant. It's no big deal. It happens all the time.
It only becomse a big deal if everyone flies off the handle and starts name calling and flaming each other left and right. We haven't had too much of that here fortunately.....yet! 
If we all agreed with each other and shared the same beliefs and values, there probably wouldn't be much need for message boards like this one.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Marc_a_b
Skeptic Friend
USA
142 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2001 : 12:57:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
Apparantly yogic fliers can fix all society's problems. I guess.
Yea, that is one of the claims, that a group of TM masters meditating will create an aura of tranquility, which will reduce the crime rate and increase general happiness of everyone in the area.
In the book Voodoo Science there was the story of an experiment done testing this very claim. 2,000 TM masters were flown into Washington D.C. to prove how effective haveing teams meditating 24 hours a day for two months.
The murder rate during those two months was the highest recorded in the city, before or since.
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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2001 : 13:46:50 [Permalink]
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Sarah, please don't leave because of me.
If I misinterpreted, then I apologize. And I recognize I should be careful about commenting on other people's attitudes, because I get wrapped up in debates myself and can get a bit excited about it. No biggie.
We're glad to have you here, even when, or especially when, we can good-naturedly disagree.
Stay stay stay
My kids still love me. |
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Bradley
Skeptic Friend
USA
147 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2001 : 18:58:09 [Permalink]
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quote:
Please don't flame me, I was young and stupid--but from high school and college on, I was involved in this Goddess-based, nature worshipping and "magick" hoodoo for a number of years. (You'd be surprised how many are)
Then I grew up and I realized what a crock it all is! I am just wondering if there is anyone else out there with similiar opinions. Or who has even gone through the same experience.
So you find your former involvement with some permutation of paganism to be an embarassment. I, for one, am in no position to flame anyone, having spent the summer of '75 with a bunch of anemic young men selling Mo letters on city streets.I was 20 and should have been running around with a couple of young women in a convertible.
Many atheists claim to have never been taken in by religion, and I wish I could in all honesty say the same. However, there was a time when I took supernaturalism very seriously. I'm glad that you, I, and many others like us have been able to evolve beyond such nonsense.
You make a very good point in saying that Neo-paganism is at least as absurd as xian fundamentalism, but somehow I feel I have more to be embarassed about having been a jesus freak than you have in having been a wiccan. I realize that this self-assessment is very subjective, but I feel that I've been a wimp for subscribing to such a namby-pamby mindset.
"Too much doubt is better than too much credulity."
-Robert Green Ingersoll (1833 - 1899) |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2001 : 20:09:12 [Permalink]
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quote:
selling Mo letters
What's a Mo letter?
See! Maybe it's better to have been somewhere else and arrived, then to have been in the same place all the time.
As one who has never been religious my education is lacking in the knowlege of the bible therefore I cannot debate the subject with anyone. |
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Marc_a_b
Skeptic Friend
USA
142 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2001 : 20:36:58 [Permalink]
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What's a Mo letter?
The only Mo Letters I know of are from the cult known as The Family. Their leader would spread news and teachings to members through the letters. Usualy these were secret items for full members only and not sold in the street. Among the practices of this group was "flirty fishing". In which they would entice people to join by haveing their more attractive members flirt with people and coax them to join.
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