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Hook
Skeptic Friend
USA
79 Posts |
 Posted - 10/07/2001 : 15:45:01 [Permalink]
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Hmmm, appears BABB has gone down, as BA promised-- I think-- could be just the server again.  Looking forward to the new board, Phil, whatever you picked. Take your time. We always miss it, but we can always handg out here in the meantime. 
(P-)>
We are all in the gutter but some of us are looking at the stars. |
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Torsten
New Member
Canada
16 Posts |
Posted - 10/07/2001 : 17:09:56 [Permalink]
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Hmmmm. Yes, just as I had prepared an answer to Zandermann's question of why we were discussing grasshoppers and kosher food.
Well, Zandermann, I admit the strange posts follow on something I posted, a topic I raised which I'm normally loathe to discuss at BA's board, and that's biblical inerrancy.
Here's what I was going to say:
We finally have acknowledgement from Gerardus Bouw himself that the argument over geocentric vs acentric views is essentially theological and not scientific. But Bouw should not be allowed out of this so easily. He continues to have a website that promotes the geocentric view as an absolute truth. For all the scientific-sounding language on his pages, Bouw's views are actually anti-scientific, as he makes clear in his http://www.biblicalastronomer.org/aba/credo.htm>credo. I consider his views poisonous to a better understanding of the world. Thankfully, most people don't fall for his trash.
So, to further demonstrate the futility of Bouw's efforts to fit science to the Bible, I attempted to use a simple example that even he and his followers should understand. But it reveals something else, which most readers here know anyway, and it's shown in the response of one of his followers:
Consider how appropriate that Mifletz would jump right in there with that silliness about grasshoppers walking on four legs, and then take it completely off-topic with the kosher bit. Not only that, he now posts in this new thread, instead of to David S. in the thread further down. This is how important he sees the issue being -- it must be brought to the top! His entire geocentric universe will collapse unless he can show that grasshoppers are kosher! Meanwhile the reality of the grasshopper's 6-legged walking habit goes unacknowledged -- maybe we'll forget about it. What a schism the YEC faces.
We are seeing a textbook example of the twists and turns the fundamentalist mind must make in attempting to fit astronomy, and science in general, to their version of revealed truth, while everyone else is simply wrong.
So, the bottom line as I see it is that these guys don't practice bad science, they practice anti-science.
And bad theology.
TK
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Dog_Ed
Skeptic Friend
USA
126 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2001 : 18:29:59 [Permalink]
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Torsten--
Absolutely right. Theories in science always, always play second fiddle to observational and experimental evidence. If a theory doesn't agree with the evidence, out it goes. In the fundamentalist Christian worldview, evidence always plays second fiddle to the Bible: the Bible cannot be disproven, therefore the evidence itself must be wrong, or wrongly interpreted. As you note, this is exactly the opposite of the scientific view, and therefore anti-science right to the core.
Fortunately, I think that nearly all Christians vote with their feet, as it were, in that they embrace the products of science wholeheartedly. Mainstream Christianity is already changing to conform to the universe as revealed by science, and those fundamentalists who oppose science will find themselves increasingly isolated. That's my opinion, anyway.
"Even Einstein put his foot in it sometimes" |
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Zandermann
Skeptic Friend
USA
431 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2001 : 19:18:54 [Permalink]
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Torsten......agree with all that you say here.
My question ("what is this doing here on this board?") wasn't meant for you, but for the jokers who are playing at doing science from a Biblical/Talmudic standpoint. I should have made that clearer.
I admire the way the conversation turned around to the point that he had to say he was being theological rather than scientific...not that it will stop him. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 10/11/2001 : 06:35:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
From: Valiant Dancer's real name
To: Kevin Peacock
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 4:57 AM
Subject: Moon Hoax correction
Sir,
I would like to mention some information which may shed light on the
subject of why the Soviet Union stopped their push for the moon. Their top
rocket scientists were roasty-toast. In October of 1960, their main space
launch base was Baikunur. This facility suffered a pad explosion and fire
during a fuelling operation. The explosion and fire killed their best and
brightest rocket scientists as well as the commanding general. The
general's
successor was ineffective in retaining funding for their effort and the
Soviet Union quickly fell behind.
Link from Russia's space program.
http://www.russianspaceweb.com/r16_disaster.html
His responce
quote:
From: Kevin Peacock [mailto:vk4vkd@mail2me.com.au]
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 3:04 AM
To: Valiant Dancer's real name
Subject: Re: Moon Hoax correction
Joseph, thanks for your e-mail mate.
Do you believe that the whole of the Soviet Space Program was dependent on
just one man?
I don't believe that anymore than I would believe the US Space Program was
hinged entirely on one person.
The website you refer to was compiled well after the "space race" ended -
and well after the USSR started receiving mega bucks from the USA and the
IMF. and while it certainly does contain historical facts it does not tell
the full story.
The USSR did not release the information that Gagarin was not the first man
in space until 12th. April 2001 - why not - because they did not want to
disclose the fact that they had cooked three other cosmonauts when they sent
them into deep space and they came back dead.
Strangely the comment that I remember so well from the time - when the
Soviet cosmonauts visited the USA - one of the cosmonauts stated that they
had withdrawn from the space race "because they considered the outer space
environment to be too dangerous for human beings" has never come up in the
website.
Anyway it won't be long before we find out the truth - the Chinese are about
to establish a Lunar colony - according to them - within the next 10 years -
wonder why the US didn't do something like that?
Thanks again Joseph - take nothing on face value.
73's
de Kev. VK4VKD
Home of the One Man Tower
http://people.mail2me.com.au/~vk4vkd/index.htm
My response
quote:
Sir,
I never take things at face value. The Soviet space race did not hinge on one man. 92 died that day. Quite a few were the best and brightest rocket scientists. The Soviets lots more than three cosmonauts, mostly due to equipment failure and the land based recovery of the Soyuz spacecraft. Several died when their spacecraft depresurized in space. There has been a mostly antagonistic relationship between the Soviet Union and the United States since the US landed troops at Archangel during the October Revolution. It is for this reason that failures of the program were not disclosed to the world. These may be simple explainations, but when dealing with societies and observed phenomenon the idea of Occam's razor must apply. Constructing an elaborate consipiracy involving hundreds of thousands of individuals doesn't work. The Nixon administration couldn't cover up a criminal break in by members of his re-election committee. A conspiracy of this magnatude could not survive. The Baikonur explosion of 1960 was known as far back as the 70's. I have read many Moon hoax sites and seen what they consider evidence. I have been able to simply and logically explain this as an incomplete understanding of physics, photography, and perspective from a 3-D environment to a 2-D medium. In addition, there is independant confirmation by HAM radio operators of the moon landings. Some of them are your own countrymen.
I'm spinning my wheels on this one aren't I. Since we have a Piper's Anonomous board, could we get a Moon Hoax website responder Anonomous board? 
Was my response unreasonable? Any one else want to take a whack at this guy. He gives HAM radio operators a bad name. (Austrialian's won't claim him, smart people)
Edited by - Valiant Dancer on 10/11/2001 06:39:23 |
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Kaptain K
New Member
USA
45 Posts |
Posted - 10/11/2001 : 12:09:39 [Permalink]
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Yes, you are spinning your wheels. No, you were not being unreasonable. No, I do not want to "take a whack at him". I am having enough trouble trying to stay out of the geocentrist troll invasion on the BABB.
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James
SFN Regular
USA
754 Posts |
Posted - 10/11/2001 : 17:14:09 [Permalink]
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1st:
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful." [Seneca the Younger (4? B.C. - 65 A.D.)]
"With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil - that takes religion." [Steven Weinberg]
"If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed." [Albert Einstein]
"Life is but a momentary glimpse of the wonder of this astonishing universe, and it is sad to see so many dreaming it away on spiritual fantasy." [Carl Sagan]
"Minds are like parachutes. They only function when they are open." [Sir James Dewar]
"God has no place within these school walls just as facts have no place within organized religion!" [School Superintendent on the Simpsons]
"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use." [Galileo Galilei]
"Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day. Give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish." [Timothy Jones]
"Faith is often the boast of the man who is too lazy to investigate." [F.M. Knowles]
"The Church says that the earth is flat, but I know that it is round, for I have seen the shadow on the moon, and I have more faith in a shadow than in the Church." [Ferdinand Magellan]
"Faith may be defined briefly as an illogical belief in the occurence of the improbable." [H.L. Mencken]
"We must question the story of logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty Humans, then blames them for his own mistakes." [Gene Roddenberry]
"Religion is something left over from the infancy of our intelligence, it will fade away as we adopt reason and science as our guidelines." [Bertrand Russell]
"Organized religion is a sham and a crutch for weak-minded people who need strength in numbers. It tells people to go out and stick their noses in other people's business. I live by the golden rule: Treat others as you'd want them to treat you. The religious right wants to tell people how to live." [Jesse Ventura]
"If the answers to prayer are merely what God wills all along, then why pray?" [Dan Barker]
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks, please. Cash and in small bills." [Robert Heinlein]
"Faith strikes me as intellectual laziness." [Robert Heinlein]
"The Bible is such a gargantuan collection of conflicting values that anyone can prove anything from it." [Robert Heinlein]
"But Marge, what if we chose the wrong religion? Each week we just make god madder and madder." [Homer Simpson]
"If sin is an offense against God, he cannot judge us for it. It is an absolute requirement of justice that no one acts as a judge in his own cause. A judge must be independent and distinct of the parties. Unless of course, you confuse 'judge' and 'absolute tyrant'." [Unknown]
"There are none more ignorant and useless, than they that seek answers on their knees, with their eyes closed." [Unknown]
"I want you to know, when it comes to believing in god- I really tried. I really really tried. I tried to believe that there is a god who created each one of us in his own image and likeness, loves us very much and keeps a close eye on things. I really tried to believe that, but I gotta tell you, the longer you live, the more you look around, the more you realize...something is FUCKED-UP. Something is WRONG here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is NOT good work. If this is the best god can do, I am NOT impressed. Results like these do not belong on the resume of a supreme being. This is the kind of shit you' |
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James
SFN Regular
USA
754 Posts |
Posted - 10/11/2001 : 17:19:26 [Permalink]
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2nd:
quote:
I'm spinning my wheels on this one aren't I. Since we have a Piper's Anonomous board, could we get a Moon Hoax website responder Anonomous board?
Was my response unreasonable? Any one else want to take a whack at this guy. He gives HAM radio operators a bad name. (Austrialian's won't claim him, smart people)
If you wanna give yourself an ulcer, go ahead. If you wanna(possibly) ruin your life, go right ahead and do battle with this nut case via e-mail. If you do not wish to do any of the above, then, if possible, block his e-mail address and put him out of your life for good. Just some friendly advice.
Prayer is nothing more than "spiritual masturbation". -theatheistknight |
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Rift
Skeptic Friend
USA
333 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2001 : 06:44:34 [Permalink]
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Well kids, really bad news... And the reason i've been sparse lately...
My mother died last week. She had gotten better, and we were hopeful she would be home for her birthday on oct. 3rd. She suddenly got worse, caught pnemonia and went into septic shock again. (I've seen it twice now, i never want to see it again). Her poor heart just couldn't take it anymore (this had been going on for two weeks), and she died October 2nd, just a few hours shy of her 67th birthday.
Although I went through my father's death 18 years ago at the age of 20 (at a time when I really needed him) it doesn't really get any better. You might get more numb and less hysterical, but it's not something to get use to.
Needless to say, i'm a nervous wreck. September 11th made me a mess even before my mother went in the hospital. (I have to say that the last month has to be the worse month i've ever lived through, lol)
To show how bad it is, Hoagland has a new kookier, crazier, rant on his board, and I don't even care. lol :) (at least i still have my humor...)
Anyway if you're curious, Hoagland is making a prediction that something *not trivial* will happen in DC on November 17. why? the stars are aligned right ::sigh::
If you think you can wade through the inane ramblings- http://www.enterprisemission.com/tower2.htm
For some reason the events in my life have made anything hoagland says *trival* now...
Anyway, I really appericiated the well wishes when I told you all my mother was in the hospital. I just wish I could tell you good news :(
I'll probably be sparse for a while more. Ranting and raving about trolls seems to be a low priority with me now :) no matter how fun it may be, lol
"Real Patriots ask questions." Carl Sagan, The Demon Haunted World |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2001 : 06:48:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
2nd:
quote:
I'm spinning my wheels on this one aren't I. Since we have a Piper's Anonomous board, could we get a Moon Hoax website responder Anonomous board?
Was my response unreasonable? Any one else want to take a whack at this guy. He gives HAM radio operators a bad name. (Austrialian's won't claim him, smart people)
If you wanna give yourself an ulcer, go ahead. If you wanna(possibly) ruin your life, go right ahead and do battle with this nut case via e-mail. If you do not wish to do any of the above, then, if possible, block his e-mail address and put him out of your life for good. Just some friendly advice.
Prayer is nothing more than "spiritual masturbation". -theatheistknight
Well noted. Fourtunately, I gave him my e-mail address at work. Today is my last day. Going to a better place. (10% raise, better benefits. Wooohooo!)
There's gotta be a 12 step for this guy.
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Hook
Skeptic Friend
USA
79 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2001 : 14:40:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
Well noted. Fourtunately, I gave him my e-mail address at work. Today is my last day. Going to a better place. (10% raise, better benefits. Wooohooo!)
There's gotta be a 12 step for this guy.
=========8^(______________________________)
Never give out your work email. I use email forwarding aliases even for my home email, Lol!
(P-)>
We are all in the gutter but some of us are looking at the stars. |
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Hook
Skeptic Friend
USA
79 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2001 : 14:52:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
Well kids, really bad news... And the reason i've been sparse lately...
My mother died last week. She had gotten better, and we were hopeful she would be home for her birthday on oct. 3rd. She suddenly got worse, caught pnemonia and went into septic shock again. (I've seen it twice now, i never want to see it again). Her poor heart just couldn't take it anymore (this had been going on for two weeks), and she died October 2nd, just a few hours shy of her 67th birthday.
Although I went through my father's death 18 years ago at the age of 20 (at a time when I really needed him) it doesn't really get any better. You might get more numb and less hysterical, but it's not something to get use to.
Needless to say, i'm a nervous wreck. September 11th made me a mess even before my mother went in the hospital. (I have to say that the last month has to be the worse month i've ever lived through, lol)
Rift,
Sorry to hear about your mother, my sincere condolences to you and your family. I went through a personal tragedy involving violent death and injury to a family we were very close to on September 6th. I was amazed how that personal event and the events of September 11th got so intertwined, making it ever so much harder to recover from either. Now, my mother-in-law is dying of cancer. I'm sure my perspective at this point is pretty warped, but this does seem to be a grim autumn.
And, yes, the trolls and cranks seem ever so insignificant and not worth the bother.
Take as much time as you need. The trolls will still be there when you get back, no doubt.
(P-)>
We are all in the gutter but some of us are looking at the stars. |
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Randy
SFN Regular
USA
1990 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2001 : 16:09:19 [Permalink]
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Hey Hook & Rift,
All my best to you and your loved ones.
-Randy |
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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2001 : 17:35:42 [Permalink]
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Rift & Hook,
Best wishes to you guys. Take delight in a bright blue sky, a glass of wine, a smile, a Mozart Sonata. Whatever is right with you and the world.
Chip
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2001 : 20:22:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
Well kids, really bad news... And the reason i've been sparse lately...
My mother died last week. She had gotten better, and we were hopeful she would be home for her birthday on oct. 3rd. She suddenly got worse, caught pnemonia and went into septic shock again. (I've seen it twice now, i never want to see it again). Her poor heart just couldn't take it anymore (this had been going on for two weeks), and she died October 2nd, just a few hours shy of her 67th birthday.
Although I went through my father's death 18 years ago at the age of 20 (at a time when I really needed him) it doesn't really get any better. You might get more numb and less hysterical, but it's not something to get use to.
Needless to say, i'm a nervous wreck. September 11th made me a mess even before my mother went in the hospital. (I have to say that the last month has to be the worse month i've ever lived through, lol)
Well, my thoughts are with you.
Had some pretty nasty news myself. On 9-11 sat in the VA hospital with my dad - thought he had a torn muscle in his back. Well 3 MRIs and a colonoscopy later - he's got three tumors and has to have a vertabrae replaced.
Rift - hang in there. It's been a pretty shitty September here too.
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying." ~Kurt Vonnegut, Jr. |
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