Skeptic Friends Network

Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?
Home | Forums | Active Topics | Active Polls | Register | FAQ | Contact Us  
  Connect: Chat | SFN Messenger | Buddy List | Members
Personalize: Profile | My Page | Forum Bookmarks  
 All Forums
 Our Skeptic Forums
 Politics
 A politically incorrect diatribe
 New Topic  Topic Locked
 Printer Friendly Bookmark this Topic BookMark Topic
Previous Page | Next Page
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic
Page: of 6

Kristin
Skeptic Friend

Canada
84 Posts

Posted - 09/24/2001 :  06:15:37   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kristin's Homepage Send Kristin a Private Message
Rubysue, I haven't been around to see enough of you, but you have the calm voice of experience, even if you think you're ranting. Thank you for your thoughts. I hope my own posts will be half so intelligent and thought-provoking, in the future.

Good judgement comes from experience: experience comes from bad judgement.

Edited by - kristin on 09/24/2001 06:16:50
Go to Top of Page

Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 09/24/2001 :  06:25:25   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message
I'm not sure if it's ranting, but she doesn't seem to understand what other people are trying to tell her.

quote:

Rubysue, I haven't been around to see enough of you, but you have the calm voice of experience, even if you think you're ranting. Thank you for your thoughts. I hope my own posts will be half so intelligent and thought-provoking, in the future.

Good judgement comes from experience: experience comes from bad judgement.

Edited by - kristin on 09/24/2001 06:16:50



Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org
Go to Top of Page

Mespo_man
Skeptic Friend

USA
312 Posts

Posted - 09/24/2001 :  07:48:23   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Mespo_man a Private Message
*tap tap* Is this mike on? *tap tap*

Just wanted to weigh in with a few thoughts after reading and wathcing the ebb and flow of raw emotion the past week.

1. Get over the mind set of bombing everything into oblivion. The U.S. is NOT going to use a 40 million dollar (plus) bomber to fire a 4 million dollar missile to destroy a 4 dollar mud hut. TheY WILL go in with special forces to target and kill at close range.

2. "Brought to justice". That's a euphamism for murder. Do you really think that we're going to all the trouble to put these clowns on trial? Only if they're stupid enough to be taken alive. And I'm willing to bet the first 5,000 or so terrorists will be killed "gratis". In the black humor of the military, bombs, missiles and even close support infantry weapons will carry the names of New York victims as part of "pay back time". Some of you may be old enough to remember the Palestinian terrorist attack on the Israel atheletes at the 1976 Munich Olympics. The Israeli special forces hunted down and murdered every single one of the terrorists. There were no trials.

3. If the U.S. is such a war-mongering-money-grubbing society, how is it that people from 80 different countries INCLUDING the Middle East were killed in the WTC towers? Find any other spot on earth, except the U.N., which is ALSO in New York, where you can kill so many different foreign nationals in one strike. Could it have something to do with international trade and commerce? A place and a system of doing business where people of diverse backgrounds are working toward common goals? Could it just be that Capitalism has something going for it? Karl Marx thought otherwise. Where is he now? Where is Pol Pot's return to the Agrarian Paradise? How about Chairman Mao's Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution?

4. U.S. foreign policy. Mistakes? Yup. A certain arrogance and swagger? You bet 'cha. And the rest of the world is BLAMELESS? If we just stayed home and were nice to people there would be no war? HUH? The U.S. is the only country that works in it's on self-interest? EVERYBODY works in their own self-interest! A nation that doesn't put the interests of it's citizens first is going to be sucker-punched by somebody else. The trick is to find common goals with other nations.

5. The world just shrank. Dramatically. World commerce, cultural and information exchanges will be even more tightly inter-woven and inter-dependent. It is only through the free flow of words and ideas that true progress and justice can be made. Rebuilding the house damaged by fire is a noble idea. But FIRST, you've got to put the fire out.

Regards,

(:raig Miller
Go to Top of Page

James
SFN Regular

USA
754 Posts

Posted - 09/24/2001 :  08:13:25   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send James a Yahoo! Message Send James a Private Message
quote:
3. If the U.S. is such a war-mongering-money-grubbing society, how is it that people from 80 different countries INCLUDING the Middle East were killed in the WTC towers?


Are you sure about this, Mespo_man? Where did you here this? I've heard upwards of 62 countries had people in WTC. Here I counted up to about 45 countries. Just wondering where you got the number, is all.

The way I see it, christians are godless too...they just don't know it yet.
Go to Top of Page

Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 09/24/2001 :  08:31:32   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message
Well, let's take a look at this logic. If people from other countries do business with a country, or work in that country, that means that everything that country does is wonderful? Like Communist China, Indonesia, the Soviet Union?

Mistakes? There are mistakes, yes. Somewhere around two million dead in Iraq is no mistake. It was intentional. Millions dead in Southeast Asia and Korea. No mistake. Intentional. Thousands tortured and killed with U.S. support in Latin America? No mistake. Intentional.

What is the logic behind the idea that the crimes of others excuse U.S. crimes? I can't quite grasp that one.

quote:

*
3. If the U.S. is such a war-mongering-money-grubbing society, how is it that people from 80 different countries INCLUDING the Middle East were killed in the WTC towers? Find any other spot on earth, except the U.N., which is ALSO in New York, where you can kill so many different foreign nationals in one strike. Could it have something to do with international trade and commerce? A place and a system of doing business where people of diverse backgrounds are working toward common goals? Could it just be that Capitalism has something going for it? Karl Marx thought otherwise. Where is he now? Where is Pol Pot's return to the Agrarian Paradise? How about Chairman Mao's Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution?

4. U.S. foreign policy. Mistakes? Yup. A certain arrogance and swagger? You bet 'cha. And the rest of the world is BLAMELESS? If we just stayed home and were nice to people there would be no war? HUH? The U.S. is the only country that works in it's on self-interest? EVERYBODY works in their own self-interest! A nation that doesn't put the interests of it's citizens first is going to be sucker-punched by somebody else. The trick is to find common goals with other nations.




Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org
Go to Top of Page

Court Jester
New Member

United Kingdom
5 Posts

Posted - 09/24/2001 :  08:42:59   [Permalink]  Show Profile
Ok, all you folks who do *not* want to wage war on terrorists, tell us what YOUR answer to the problem is? What is your solution to end world wide terrorism? Or do you have a solution?

BTW: rubysue, I'm on your side. You GO girl!!!
Go to Top of Page

Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 09/24/2001 :  08:47:14   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message
Who are you starting with? If you're not starting with Henry Kissinger, for instance, then what do you care about terrorism?

quote:

Ok, all you folks who do *not* want to wage war on terrorists, tell us what YOUR answer to the problem is? What is your solution to end world wide terrorism? Or do you have a solution?

BTW: rubysue, I'm on your side. You GO girl!!!



Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org
Go to Top of Page

@tomic
Administrator

USA
4607 Posts

Posted - 09/24/2001 :  09:00:49   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit @tomic's Homepage Send @tomic a Private Message
War? One goes to war with other countries not terrorist organizations hiding out. Use the word if you want and makes you feel good but it's innaccurate.

That "they did it too" thing again? If any of you have kids and your kids used that what would you say? LOL

@tomic

Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Go to Top of Page

Mespo_man
Skeptic Friend

USA
312 Posts

Posted - 09/24/2001 :  09:44:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Mespo_man a Private Message
To James:

CNN.COM has the world count at "more than 60 countries", so my 80 count is a little high. The numbers are going to go up and down, but that's not the point.

The point of that paragraph is that we too have a network. A capitalist network. A worldwide network that crosses all language, cultural and religious barriers. It is not going to be defeated, overrun or beaten down. Who's got more courage? The New York firemen who rushes into harm's way, or the New York Stock Exchange trader who's probably peeing his pants to be back in the financial district, but is determined to keep the wheels of commerce rolling?


TO Gorgo:

In case you haven't noticed, our foreign policy is now "The enemy of my enemy is my friend". So we WILL climb in bed with any political regime that will further our goals. There have always been two worlds, the up-and-up and the down-and-dirty. You have to play in both arenas because that is what the world is.

(:raig
Go to Top of Page

Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 09/24/2001 :  09:47:16   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message
You mean that the U.S. has to put dictators in power to benefit Chiquita, Nike and Disney.

quote:

To James:



TO Gorgo:

In case you haven't noticed, our foreign policy is now "The enemy of my enemy is my friend". So we WILL climb in bed with any political regime that will further our goals. There have always been two worlds, the up-and-up and the down-and-dirty. You have to play in both arenas because that is what the world is.

(:raig



Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org
Go to Top of Page

@tomic
Administrator

USA
4607 Posts

Posted - 09/24/2001 :  10:01:28   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit @tomic's Homepage Send @tomic a Private Message
quote:
or the New York Stock Exchange trader who's probably peeing his pants to be back in the financial district, but is determined to keep the wheels of commerce rolling?


Are you joking here? This guy is interested in his paycheck!! LOL Let's not get silly.

@tomic

Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Go to Top of Page

The Bad Astronomer
Skeptic Friend

137 Posts

Posted - 09/24/2001 :  10:23:48   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit The Bad Astronomer's Homepage Send The Bad Astronomer a Private Message
quote:

You mean that the U.S. has to put dictators in power to benefit Chiquita, Nike and Disney.



That's quite the accusation. This being a Skeptic forum, do you have adequate citations for this claim, including proof that if dictators were put into power by the US, it was because those companies would benefit, and not a coincidence or just a happy outcome?

I am not saying I necessarily disagree with you. However, there have sure been a lot of accusations flying around this forum the past week, and I am seeing a real dearth of fact checking and references.

*****
The Bad Astronomer
http://www.badastronomy.com
"With tremendous respect to [the] BA, the problem isn't getting scientists to talk, the problem can be getting them to shut up."
Go to Top of Page

Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 09/24/2001 :  10:27:23   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message
quote:

*tap tap* Is this mike on? *tap tap*

Just wanted to weigh in with a few thoughts after reading and wathcing the ebb and flow of raw emotion the past week.

1. Get over the mind set of bombing everything into oblivion. The U.S. is NOT going to use a 40 million dollar (plus) bomber to fire a 4 million dollar missile to destroy a 4 dollar mud hut. TheY WILL go in with special forces to target and kill at close range.



Quite right here.

quote:

2. "Brought to justice". That's a euphamism for murder. Do you really think that we're going to all the trouble to put these clowns on trial? Only if they're stupid enough to be taken alive. And I'm willing to bet the first 5,000 or so terrorists will be killed "gratis". In the black humor of the military, bombs, missiles and even close support infantry weapons will carry the names of New York victims as part of "pay back time". Some of you may be old enough to remember the Palestinian terrorist attack on the Israel atheletes at the 1976 Munich Olympics. The Israeli special forces hunted down and murdered every single one of the terrorists. There were no trials.



Yes, we are interested in putting them on trial. If you kill them unnessassarily, they become martyrs. Putting them on trial puts their message on trial and exposes it to global ridicule. It's not like they are going to give up peacefully, now are they.

quote:

3. If the U.S. is such a war-mongering-money-grubbing society, how is it that people from 80 different countries INCLUDING the Middle East were killed in the WTC towers? Find any other spot on earth, except the U.N., which is ALSO in New York, where you can kill so many different foreign nationals in one strike. Could it have something to do with international trade and commerce? A place and a system of doing business where people of diverse backgrounds are working toward common goals? Could it just be that Capitalism has something going for it? Karl Marx thought otherwise. Where is he now? Where is Pol Pot's return to the Agrarian Paradise? How about Chairman Mao's Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution?



The quote for 80 nationalities was from the President's State of the Union address. The communist idea was unrealistic even to Marx. He said that it would never work due to the inherent greed in people. Lenin, Pol Pot, and Ho Chi Mihn all had the same problem. They started with Leninist Marxism. Leninist Marxism is very different than Marx's Communism.

quote:

4. U.S. foreign policy. Mistakes? Yup. A certain arrogance and swagger? You bet 'cha. And the rest of the world is BLAMELESS? If we just stayed home and were nice to people there would be no war? HUH? The U.S. is the only country that works in it's on self-interest? EVERYBODY works in their own self-interest! A nation that doesn't put the interests of it's citizens first is going to be sucker-punched by somebody else. The trick is to find common goals with other nations.



Right on here.

quote:

5. The world just shrank. Dramatically. World commerce, cultural and information exchanges will be even more tightly inter-woven and inter-dependent. It is only through the free flow of words and ideas that true progress and justice can be made. Rebuilding the house damaged by fire is a noble idea. But FIRST, you've got to put the fire out.



Things were heading this way anyway. Started at least around the Carter administration. The attack just upped the timeline.


Go to Top of Page

Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 09/24/2001 :  10:45:31   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message
quote:

Ok folks, I apologize in advance for this, and will likely be banned from the SFN for stirring the pot and being so politically incorrect, but so be it (I think I'm pretty sick of message boards, anyway, and my blood pressure will appreciate the gesture).



No need for a disclaimer for a rubysue rant(tm).

quote:

<>
First rant item: Ten days after probably the most horrifying event that I've seen in my sheltered and pampered life (so far), I must say that I am still struggling with a wide range of emotions, including deep grief, sadness, fear, and anger. But, damn it all, I must also say that the thing that depresses me most is reading the types of comments and petty nonsense that has reared its ugly head on this and other message boards. People from all over the world (not just Americans) are suffering enormous pain and fear and are still searching for loved ones but idle message board pundits obsessively speculate on how past policies (all the way back to slavery) of the U.S. government caused this horror and that we got what we deserved. Blaming the victims for happened to them is the classic response of those who lack empathy and have some bizarre, one-sided axe to grind that ignores the full range of facts, simply because some of those facts contradict their political agenda (and this has been true of liberals and conservatives throughout history). Yes, (sigh) I agree that U.S. foreign policy has been a disaster at times in our history (I say this before I have to read the same obnoxious and worn-out arguments over and over that will be posted in response to this), but this country has also worked tirelessly to help those who need help (to the tune of billions and billions of dollars of foreign aid, assistance, etc.). We intervened in Kosovo to protect the Muslim minorities and force out a criminal dictator (I guess bin Laden doesn't care about those Muslims). We sent troops into Sudan strictly for humanitarian purposes to help the starving population in that benighted country and had to watch our servicemen's bodies get dragged through the street. We've tried and tried and tried to forge a lasting peace in the Middle East, only to see it destroyed by fanaticism. One fact that really surprised me: Bill Clinton met more times with Yasser Arafat than any other foreign leader during his eight years in office, but when a fair and acceptable peace and land agreement was almost reached between Israel and the Palestinians, the fanatics in the latter group responded with waves of terror and suicide bombings, which resulted in similar responses from the Israelis and the election of an Israeli leader who is much less interested in peace. When your nation is an economic “superpower, creating an appropriate foreign policy is a complicated and delicate balancing act that must be flexible if you wish to avoid isolationism and want to advance democratic ideals across the world. Since many other countries have no interest in embracing democratic ideals, this approach may piss some of them off. Perhaps we haven't always been on the “right” side in conflicts and have supported crass dictators who waged their own campaigns of terror; this was due primarily to our long cold war aversion to anything communist and/or supported by the former Soviets. This inability to be “perfect” at all times in our foreign affairs in no way, shape or form justifies acts of terrifying mass murder that have committed by those that hate us simply because we stand in the way of their desire to implement a reign of fear across the globe.

Go to Top of Page

Kristin
Skeptic Friend

Canada
84 Posts

Posted - 09/24/2001 :  11:01:56   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kristin's Homepage Send Kristin a Private Message
quote:

I'm not sure if it's ranting, but she doesn't seem to understand what other people are trying to tell her.

quote:

Rubysue, I haven't been around to see enough of you, but you have the calm voice of experience, even if you think you're ranting. Thank you for your thoughts. I hope my own posts will be half so intelligent and thought-provoking, in the future.

Good judgement comes from experience: experience comes from bad judgement.

Edited by - kristin on 09/24/2001 06:16:50



Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org


Gorgo, I don't want to get into a flamewar, as you seem like an intelligent poster, and myself being witfully unarmed. However you very obviously have an agenda you're trying to forward. Your kneejerk responses to everyone who agrees with rubysue are rather ridiculous. My first kneejerk in response to you was to yell 'TROLL'. Thus I edited the message. But you have me questioning the wisdom of that.

Goodness knows, there may come a push from this to help those people who you ARE worried about. But bitching that she's not listening isn't doing anything to help your cause.

Good judgement comes from experience: experience comes from bad judgement.
Go to Top of Page
Page: of 6 Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
Previous Page | Next Page
 New Topic  Topic Locked
 Printer Friendly Bookmark this Topic BookMark Topic
Jump To:

The mission of the Skeptic Friends Network is to promote skepticism, critical thinking, science and logic as the best methods for evaluating all claims of fact, and we invite active participation by our members to create a skeptical community with a wide variety of viewpoints and expertise.


Home | Skeptic Forums | Skeptic Summary | The Kil Report | Creation/Evolution | Rationally Speaking | Skeptillaneous | About Skepticism | Fan Mail | Claims List | Calendar & Events | Skeptic Links | Book Reviews | Gift Shop | SFN on Facebook | Staff | Contact Us

Skeptic Friends Network
© 2008 Skeptic Friends Network Go To Top Of Page
This page was generated in 0.41 seconds.
Powered by @tomic Studio
Snitz Forums 2000