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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 09/24/2001 : 11:06:10 [Permalink]
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I'm not bitching that she's not listening, I'm just stating an observation that other posters aren't getting through. That's okay - it happens all the time.
I happened to see your post about trolling, and I appreciate you taking time to think better of it.
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Gorgo, I don't want to get into a flamewar, as you seem like an intelligent poster, and myself being witfully unarmed. However you very obviously have an agenda you're trying to forward. Your kneejerk responses to everyone who agrees with rubysue are rather ridiculous. My first kneejerk in response to you was to yell 'TROLL'. Thus I edited the message. But you have me questioning the wisdom of that.
Goodness knows, there may come a push from this to help those people who you ARE worried about. But bitching that she's not listening isn't doing anything to help your cause.
Good judgement comes from experience: experience comes from bad judgement.
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2001 : 11:08:05 [Permalink]
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That's a challenging question, and I appreciate it. I'll see what I can do. In the meantime, I hope you'll ask such challenging questions of others. For instance, those who have utopian ideas about capitalism and "justice."
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You mean that the U.S. has to put dictators in power to benefit Chiquita, Nike and Disney.
That's quite the accusation. This being a Skeptic forum, do you have adequate citations for this claim, including proof that if dictators were put into power by the US, it was because those companies would benefit, and not a coincidence or just a happy outcome?
I am not saying I necessarily disagree with you. However, there have sure been a lot of accusations flying around this forum the past week, and I am seeing a real dearth of fact checking and references.
*****
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2001 : 11:23:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
...those who have utopian ideas about capitalism and "justice."
The problem seems to be, however, that from the nature or your posts here, anyone who doesn't hate capitalism with a passion is someone with "utopian" ideas about it.
There doesn't seem to be any middle ground with you.
My apologies if I've gotten the wrong impression.
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Hope springs eternal but there's no conviction
Actions mistaken for lip service paid
All this concern is the true contradiction
The world is insane... |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2001 : 11:33:09 [Permalink]
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I don't hate it with a passion, and I hope you don't either. I just know that it has shortcomings and we have to treat it as though it does. That's all. I don't think I used the word "hate" once, did I?
quote:
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...those who have utopian ideas about capitalism and "justice."
The problem seems to be, however, that from the nature or your posts here, anyone who doesn't hate capitalism with a passion is someone with "utopian" ideas about it.
There doesn't seem to be any middle ground with you.
My apologies if I've gotten the wrong impression.
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Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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Mespo_man
Skeptic Friend
USA
312 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2001 : 11:45:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
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or the New York Stock Exchange trader who's probably peeing his pants to be back in the financial district, but is determined to keep the wheels of commerce rolling?
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Are you joking here? This guy is interested in his paycheck!! LOL Let's not get silly.
Actually @tomic, I'm not. I can't speak for stock traders, but I can speak for many of the staff in our New York office who are 2 miles uptown from Ground Zero. The absenteeism had been very high, but is returning to normal. Everyone knows someone who is missing or they've been attending funerals all week long. They've been granted full-pay Leave of Absences but choose instead to return to work and get their lives and our business back in order. And at night they are giving their time to help the hundreds of children who have suddenly found themselves without one or both parents.
Didn't mean to turn this into a flag-wrapped tribute, but that bearded bastard WILL NOT defeat the everyday people that, yes, go to work for a paycheck. Gutsy people, those New Yorkers.
(:raig |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2001 : 11:53:22 [Permalink]
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Well I certainly can't dispute that they are gutsy.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2001 : 17:12:53 [Permalink]
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Well, to tell you the truth, I'm happy to see so many opinions on these boards. I would hate to think that we skeptics are all liberals or all conservatives or all libertarians or all atheists or all agnostics or all Christians or all Jews, etc., etc.
Our goal at SFN is to promote critical thinking. That doesn't mean that we should or will ever all agree on everything. It just means that there is a method for evaluating information that we think works best. I'm not suggesting that everyone on these boards checks in with their brain before commenting on a post or an observation. (A little while back I posted what turned out to be an E-mail hoax because I wanted it to be true. My critical thinking cap flew off my head. I'm using super glue now.) I am suggesting that it would be a good thing to check in with our brains from time to time. That's the goal here. Check in with our brains. Be critical of claims that come with little or no evidence.
@tomic and I are cofounders of SFN. We have found out, in the last several days, that with all we do agree on, that we have some very different political viewpoints on matters that mean a lot to both of us. We have agreed to disagree. Well, that's politics for ya. The thing is, we both want SFN to be a great site. To be a great site there has to be more than one voice, more than one idea. You get the point...
Neither President Bush nor Colin Powell have called and asked for my opinion. They haven't asked me what we should do. Could it be that my politics, filtered through sadness, anger, frustration and my past political leanings are of no interest to them? I dunno. My guess is that whatever they do, it will come as a surprise to me (and you) even though I'm pretty sure of what they should do. Oh well....
The Evil Skeptic
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous. |
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ljbrs
SFN Regular
USA
842 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2001 : 17:32:31 [Permalink]
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Tokyodreamer:
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What do you consider "justified"?
Justified bloodshed in this matter would consist of taking the lives of all of the perpertrators and the supporters of this bloodshed. Of course, a good many of the guilty took their own lives in the process of killing innocent civilians. Now, we can hardly get back at these murderers, because they are dead, dead, dead. And that makes us very angry, angry, angry! So, now we have to find somebody else to punish. Incidentally, all of the people who helped support these heinous crimes deserve to die. They are the guilty. This guiltiness most importantly and most obviously includes Osama bin Laden and any of his additional supporters.
I simply think that care should be taken, as much as possible, not to kill innocent civilians, because that would be murder. In that case, there would be more innocent victims and more retaliatory bloodshed. We could keep this thing going, back and forth, for another millennium as it had been going for the past millennium.
Killing innocent civilians is no answer. Finding the guilty is more difficult, but it can be done. Punishing those who aid in protecting the guilty are also guilty. However, creating *collateral damage* is hardly a rational or logical thing to do. It simply keeps the nastiness going.
You know, there have been a great many people killed during the last century. Do you think that it stopped the bloodshed. There are people raring to keep the murder and rampage going without regard for the consequences.
Killing the innocent is murder. Whatever else could it possibly be than murder? Shall we redefine the term *murder* to suit our present rage? It is important not to get mad, but to get even!
ljbrs  
*Nothing is more damaging to a new truth than an old error.* Goethe |
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ljbrs
SFN Regular
USA
842 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2001 : 17:34:45 [Permalink]
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Tokyodreamer:
quote:
What do you consider "justified"?
Justified bloodshed in this matter would consist of taking the lives of all of the perpertrators and the supporters of this bloodshed. Of course, a good many of the guilty took their own lives in the process of killing innocent civilians. Now, we can hardly get back at these murderers, because they are dead, dead, dead. And that makes us very angry, angry, angry! So, now we have to find somebody else to punish. Incidentally, all of the people who helped support these heinous crimes deserve to die. They are the guilty. This guiltiness most importantly and most obviously includes Osama bin Laden and any of his additional supporters.
I simply think that care should be taken, as much as possible, not to kill innocent civilians, because that would be murder. In that case, there would be more innocent victims and more retaliatory bloodshed. We could keep this thing going, back and forth, for another millennium as it had been going for the past millennium.
Killing innocent civilians is no answer. Finding the guilty is more difficult, but it can be done. Punishing those who aid in protecting the guilty are also guilty. However, creating *collateral damage* is hardly a rational or logical thing to do. It simply keeps the nastiness going.
You know, there have been a great many people killed during the last century. Do you think that it stopped the bloodshed. There are people raring to keep the murder and rampage going without regard for the consequences.
Killing the innocent is murder. Whatever else could it possibly be than murder? Shall we redefine the term *murder* to suit our present rage? It is important not to get mad, but to get even!
ljbrs
*Nothing is more damaging to a new truth than an old error.* Goethe |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2001 : 17:35:27 [Permalink]
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Hardly scientific, Chomsky offers some documentation for what we're talking about. Haiti is a prime example, but there are others, of course. Pardon me if that doesn't suit, but I've done a lot of research for people before only to have it ignored. Do your own research if you're interested.
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Chomsky/MarketDemoPOP_Chom.html
http://www.lbbs.org/chomsky/year/year-contents.html
quote:
That's a challenging question, and I appreciate it. I'll see what I can do. In the meantime, I hope you'll ask such challenging questions of others. For instance, those who have utopian ideas about capitalism and "justice."
quote:
quote:
You mean that the U.S. has to put dictators in power to benefit Chiquita, Nike and Disney.
That's quite the accusation. This being a Skeptic forum, do you have adequate citations for this claim, including proof that if dictators were put into power by the US, it was because those companies would benefit, and not a coincidence or just a happy outcome?
I am not saying I necessarily disagree with you. However, there have sure been a lot of accusations flying around this forum the past week, and I am seeing a real dearth of fact checking and references.
*****
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2001 : 17:55:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
Justified bloodshed in this matter would consist of taking the lives of all of the perpertrators and the supporters of this bloodshed.
What if the perpetrators surround themselves with innocents? Must we leave them completely alone? Are we made completely helpless by the use of innocents as hostages? (Think Saddam and his use of citizens in his weapons factories to prevent us from bombing them).
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And if rains bring winds of change
Let it rain on us forever
I have no doubt from what I've seen
I have never wanted more |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2001 : 18:04:40 [Permalink]
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You can't have any set of rules be too rigid. There are times when innocents do need to die. If bin Laden was at a location and we knew it and was surrounded by innocent non-combatants perhaps we could wait for him to make a move or send in some sort of specialist team.
As far as I know bin laden has not surrounded himself with innocents. From what i can tell he is usually in the company of his fellow terrorists.
One other thing I feel that should be brought up. In America we usually try people in a court of law to determine their guilt. I know bin laden is not an American and all that but couldn't a trial be conducted first even if he was not present in order to ascertain his guilt? Or do we have no need of that because everyone just figures he's a guilty bastard and should die and we should take out innocents if necessary because we all just figure he's guilty?
It's one thing to kill innocents. That's bad enough. Killing them on a hunch is, in my opinion, just as bad if not worse than the original crime.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2001 : 18:13:56 [Permalink]
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If the U.S. weren't against a credible U.N. or a credible World Court, that would be the place to deal with this whole issue. Attacking other countries is against international law and the U.N. charter and is no different than the original attack.
quote:
You can't have any set of rules be too rigid. There are times when innocents do need to die. If bin Laden was at a location and we knew it and was surrounded by innocent non-combatants perhaps we could wait for him to make a move or send in some sort of specialist team.
As far as I know bin laden has not surrounded himself with innocents. From what i can tell he is usually in the company of his fellow terrorists.
One other thing I feel that should be brought up. In America we usually try people in a court of law to determine their guilt. I know bin laden is not an American and all that but couldn't a trial be conducted first even if he was not present in order to ascertain his guilt? Or do we have no need of that because everyone just figures he's a guilty bastard and should die and we should take out innocents if necessary because we all just figure he's guilty?
It's one thing to kill innocents. That's bad enough. Killing them on a hunch is, in my opinion, just as bad if not worse than the original crime.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2001 : 18:24:01 [Permalink]
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I can't go so far as to say that there is never a reason to attack another country. I can even see why some use of force is necessary in this case. I just hate the thought of our leaders doing something stupid. The thing that really scares me right now is that the man making the decision(where the buck stops and all that)is an ex-alcoholic cocaine addict with hardly any experience in world affairs and before 2 weeks ago probably couldn't find Afghanistan on a map with all the other countries blacked out and Afghanistan colored bright red.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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ljbrs
SFN Regular
USA
842 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2001 : 19:27:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
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Justified bloodshed in this matter would consist of taking the lives of all of the perpertrators and the supporters of this bloodshed.
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What if the perpetrators surround themselves with innocents? Must we leave them completely alone? Are we made completely helpless by the use of innocents as hostages? (Think Saddam and his use of citizens in his weapons factories to prevent us from bombing them).
Saddam Hussein is still in power, even though we have made it hell for the citizens of Iraq. I am certain that we have turned all of the citizens of Iraq into our enemies. If we do that to too many people, there will be no friends in Islam left to support our side of this mess. Also, we need oil to do the job. If we turn the oil-producing countries unnecessarily against us, we will not have the fuel necessary to carry on any kind of war in the Middle East or anywhere else.
I think that we should be a little smarter than we were during the Gulf War. We did not finish the job then. Will we finish the job now? I think it is time for some smart fighting for a change.
Killing innocent civilians for revenge is disgusting. If they stick around Osama bin Laden, despite the warnings, then they have made that decision. However, some have tried to get out of Afganistan and could not make it over the border to safety, but were turned back.
Whatever...
ljbrs
*Nothing is more damaging to a new truth than an old error.* Goethe |
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