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The Bad Astronomer
Skeptic Friend
137 Posts |
 Posted - 09/24/2001 : 20:26:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
Hardly scientific, Chomsky offers some documentation for what we're talking about.
Hmmmm, interesting. A web search on Chomsky yields many differing opinions on him. I rather knew when I asked before that any answer would lead to more questions. Sigh. That's why I'm an astronomer, and not a political scientist.
*****
The Bad Astronomer
http://www.badastronomy.com
"With tremendous respect to [the] BA, the problem isn't getting scientists to talk, the problem can be getting them to shut up." |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2001 : 20:55:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
I rather knew when I asked before that any answer would lead to more questions.
I rather thought that any science worked this way. Each discovry leads to new questions. But at least physical sciences have answers that almost anyone can accept and are not subject to so many personal biases.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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rubysue
Skeptic Friend
USA
199 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2001 : 21:03:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
I'm not bitching that she's not listening, I'm just stating an observation that other posters aren't getting through. That's okay - it happens all the time.
?????? Happens ALL THE TIME?
To set the record straight, for all of you poor little trod upon SFN'ers who think that I'm dominating the conversation (and not listening?) on this topic, I did a little count tonight of the number of posts from the most active (first page) day of terror topics that have political content for a few selected names:
Atomic: 79 posts
Gorgo: 31 posts
ljbrs: 11 posts
rubysue: 14 posts
Greg: 31 posts
Tokyodreamer: 19 posts
Valiant Dancer: 7
Zandermann: 7
Kristin: 6
There were many others who had at least 10 posts reflecting many and all sides of this issue. I guess I just have a terrific propensity for saying things that get people's dander up - Well, SORRY ABOUT THAT, little buddies.
Now I have 15 posts in the first page of day of terror topics. And yes, I am listening. Listening does not mean I change my mind based on quick snippets of other opinions from people I've never met.
Bleahhh...
 
rubysue
If your head is wax, don't walk in the sun.
Edited by - rubysue on 09/24/2001 21:24:17 |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2001 : 22:25:22 [Permalink]
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Well shoot, I'm sorry you didn't win the total posts contest 
Awwwww, there was no contest. I was just being persistant. Do I need to apologize for that? I'm really missing something here.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2001 : 02:44:26 [Permalink]
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Yes, I'm not sure what your point is RubySue. I didn't mean that it happens all the time with you, if that's what you thought. I don't even know you.
Nor do I have any problems with you. Don't know what you're getting at.
quote:
Well shoot, I'm sorry you didn't win the total posts contest
Awwwww, there was no contest. I was just being persistant. Do I need to apologize for that? I'm really missing something here.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2001 : 05:09:55 [Permalink]
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quote:
I'm not sure if it's ranting, but she doesn't seem to understand what other people are trying to tell her.
quote:
Rubysue, I haven't been around to see enough of you, but you have the calm voice of experience, even if you think you're ranting. Thank you for your thoughts. I hope my own posts will be half so intelligent and thought-provoking, in the future.
Good judgement comes from experience: experience comes from bad judgement.
Edited by - kristin on 09/24/2001 06:16:50
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org
This from the *You're not a skeptic if you don't believe the way I do* voice? I guess no less should have been expected. Gorgo, I think it's become abundantly clear from our previous butting of heads that you and I hold diametrically opposed veiws regarding internation policies. But I am sick and fucking tired of your expecting America to be the bitch in foreign policy and bend over and take it again and again and again.
You want to sit nice and safe and bitch about what you don't like. Have you ever gotten your hands dirty working for your ideals? Have you ever been unarmed and shot for your ideals? I have friends who have been in this situation.
I also lost a friend to the Phillipino Guerillas. He was missing for a year before they found his body. I'd like to see you spout this crap to his wife and kids. You see in the year that he was missing he was horribly tortured. Why? Because he was an American. No other reason was necessary.
These radicals don't give a shit about diplomacy. They don't give a shit about human lives. And they damn sure don't give a shit about your play nice position. All they give a shit about is ruling through terror. Look at what it's like in Afghanistan now compare to before the Soviet invasion.
The only thing they are going to understand is a bullet between the eyes.
My apologies to others on the board. I'm deliberately leaving my filter off. IOW, I'm ignoring Lisa's premise that says anything that starts off listen up shithead... should probably be revised and then shredded.
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell! |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2001 : 05:13:56 [Permalink]
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Now THAT'S ranting! (0:
quote:
This from the *You're not a skeptic if you don't believe the way I do* voice? I guess no less should have been expected. Gorgo, I think it's become abundantly clear from our previous butting of heads that you and I hold diametrically opposed veiws regarding internation policies. But I am sick and fucking tired of your expecting America to be the bitch in foreign policy and bend over and take it again and again and again.
You want to sit nice and safe and bitch about what you don't like. Have you ever gotten your hands dirty working for your ideals? Have you ever been unarmed and shot for your ideals? I have friends who have been in this situation.
I also lost a friend to the Phillipino Guerillas. He was missing for a year before they found his body. I'd like to see you spout this crap to his wife and kids. You see in the year that he was missing he was horribly tortured. Why? Because he was an American. No other reason was necessary.
These radicals don't give a shit about diplomacy. They don't give a shit about human lives. And they damn sure don't give a shit about your play nice position. All they give a shit about is ruling through terror. Look at what it's like in Afghanistan now compare to before the Soviet invasion.
The only thing they are going to understand is a bullet between the eyes.
My apologies to others on the board. I'm deliberately leaving my filter off. IOW, I'm ignoring Lisa's premise that says anything that starts off listen up shithead... should probably be revised and then shredded.
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell!
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2001 : 05:20:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
Hardly scientific, Chomsky offers some documentation for what we're talking about. Haiti is a prime example, but there are others, of course. Pardon me if that doesn't suit, but I've done a lot of research for people before only to have it ignored. Do your own research if you're interested.
Case of the Pot callint the Kettle black. You wouldn't even look at the UN website for information regarding Iraq and sanctions. Nor did you look at the reports filed by those scientists in Iraq that I went and found for you. So, before you accuse I would suggest you look closer to home as well.
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell! |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2001 : 05:25:01 [Permalink]
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You had no clue as to even what the conversation was about, which you admitted. I did look at your web site, and they had nothing to do with what we were talking about, which you admitted.
I wasn't talking about anyone here when I said that my research had been ignored.
quote:
quote:
Hardly scientific, Chomsky offers some documentation for what we're talking about. Haiti is a prime example, but there are others, of course. Pardon me if that doesn't suit, but I've done a lot of research for people before only to have it ignored. Do your own research if you're interested.
Case of the Pot callint the Kettle black. You wouldn't even look at the UN website for information regarding Iraq and sanctions. Nor did you look at the reports filed by those scientists in Iraq that I went and found for you. So, before you accuse I would suggest you look closer to home as well.
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell!
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org
Edited by - Gorgo on 09/25/2001 05:30:48 |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2001 : 06:08:58 [Permalink]
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Now to Rubysue,
Well, I sat down the other night and took the time to write this out long hand without reading the other posts on your 3 rants. And am aware that I am culpable in at least one of them. I would like you to know that I enjoy your posts whether I agree with you in whole, in part or not at all. Though I must point out that the latter is rarely the case.
I will address you second rant as I seem to have been one of the main participants in this point of view. For me personally, this is/was borne of my mother running around *day of prayer* this and *day of prayer* that. And her anger that there are atheists that might not appreciate the day of prayer aspect - her opinion they should pray anyway. So, I was still wounded by her lack of sensitivity to those without her perspective on religion. (Folks wonder why I won't tell her I don't believe anymore and maybe never really did.) Even so, I am unsure taht I was ready to mourn as I am still trying to contemplate my particularly unemotional response to the horrific events of 11 Sept.
As regards to your first rant. I am in almost complete agreement with you. I will say this, make no mistake that military action is called for. If I am asked to report I will be on the first available flight. Regardless of past blunders in foreign policy - there is under absolutely no circumstance any excuse for the slaughter of thousands and potentially tens of thousands.
If I have failed to make that clear I can only say that lack of action in regard to this was not my intention. I generally attempt to look at all sides and understand. I may or may not alter my views based on that.
As regards you third rant. I have made no secret of my past military service. A little history on why I went in the service - both selfish and altruistic reasons. You see, my brother joined the Marines one year before I. When he returned from bootcamp there was something about him that I desparately wanted for myself. As a teen I seemed to be rather timid and tried covering that with bluster. I knew it for what it was and I wanted somehow to change that. Here was my brother who I used to literally throw around just by his presense demanding respect. I wanted that.
As I went through bootcamp and into the fleet, my reasons evolved beyond what I wanted into a sense of civic duty. That we as citizens of one country - right, wrong or indifferent - have a duty to each other. Still further - this duty extends to other citizens of a large community - the world.
When the US became the default *leader of the Free World* it took on a mantle of responsibility through agreements and treatis and it's very existence as a Super Power. What are it's responsibilities to the world. Well, ultimately I think it's primary concern is it's own citizens and then beyond that individuals rights and freedoms the world round. What's this mean? Yeah, we need to stop Hussein from having and unleashing WMDs, freeing the oppressed of Afghanistan. Have we always been successful - no - especially where it may not have been at that time in the best interests of the US. Well, you know so what.
Also, as to America interferring in other societies - what would have happened to the US if the French hadn't involved themselves in our little rebellion?
I know that there must exist somewhere/somewhen that someone who has expressed this better than I. Those unwilling to fight for their rights, their freedoms and their lives will lose all rights, all freedoms and ultimately their lives. If we as a country are unwilling to defend ourselves against such cruelty then we as a country deserve exactly what we get. There is no peace with those who know only blind hatred, there is no understanding with those whose only concern is erradication of the freedoms we enjoy. So as to those who cry out that the US should not fight, I wonder do they understand those who have fallen in the quest for what we have?
I'm sure most have seen the Dress Blue uniform worn by Marines. Let me explain the red stripe worn on the trousers by NCOs, SNCOs and Officers. That stripe is called a Blood Stripe. It commemorates (and reminds us [Marines] when we see it) the 70% of NCOs, SNCOs and Officers lost at the battle of Chapultepec (sp?). The sword carried by the officers during time of peace (now they will be carrying NCO swords in Dress Blues and Alphas) was awarded to a Marine Officer following the battle at Tripoli. The high collar is reminiscent of the leather collar (hence Leathernecks) worn by Marines to protect themselves from sabers when fighting. The quatrafoil on the cover worn by officers - used to be worn by all - were so the snipers in the masts knew who not to shoot when firing onto the deck of a boarded ship. Finally, the Eagle, Globe, and Anchor. The Eagle for national service, the Globe for worldwide service, and the Anchor for Naval service.
Maybe this sounds a little naive and maybe it is. Maybe the US hasn't always lived up to this ideal. But that's not a reason to blame the US for this attack. The deaths of millions in Iraq or Sudan or Kosovo or wherever are not an excuse for this. That'd be like using biblical precedence in killing every man, woman and child among them against the German population for WWII. We helped Europe recover, we are the largest contributor of humanitarian aid to Afghanistan, we do so much. But I guess that doesn't matter to those who'd rather swallow foreign propoganda and bitch.
About laying blame (rubysue, maybe you will appreciate this....)
The CIA shouldn't have backed bin Laden.
OK - maybe the Soviets shouldn't have invaded one of the most progressive Islamic societies.
The Soviets wanted/needed a southern port.
OK, maybe the Brit that said *he who rules the ocean rules the world* shouldn't have
Guess it Brittains fault.
Wait - we wouldn't have poor relation w/the Soviets if not for the nuclear bomb
OK I get it - it Einsteins fault
But wait - we wouldn't have developed the A bomb unless Japan hadn't bombed Pearl Harbor.
It's the fault of the Japanese.
But that Japanese never would have truck at the US if it hadn't been for the encouragement of the 3rd Reich in an attempt to keep the US out of Europe.
It's Hitler's fault.
Do you see where I'm going here? Eventually I can take this back to Hunter/Gatherers starting to farm in the Fertile Cresent. But, ultimately it's the fault of the first Homo (whatever I can't remember) that developed some concept of a sense of self. Unless you believe in some god who took special pains to create us - then it's his/her fault.
Seem ridiculous? well it is. We have a mess now and it must be dealt with now. No amount of second guessing or finding someone to blame is going to solve tomorrow's problem's. The past can certainly hilight mistakes and errors but it can not/does not/must not absolve those who conceived, planned and executed this attack.
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell! |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2001 : 06:15:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
You had no clue as to even what the conversation was about, which you admitted. I did look at your web site, and they had nothing to do with what we were talking about, which you admitted.
I wasn't talking about anyone here when I said that my research had been ignored.
I guess we both suffer from selective memories.
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell! |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2001 : 06:18:47 [Permalink]
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Who is saying that it is the US's fault?
quote:
Now to Rubysue,
Well, I sat down the other night and took the
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2001 : 06:21:05 [Permalink]
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There have been posts that could be construed in that fashion.
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell! |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2001 : 06:26:47 [Permalink]
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Don't know to what you're referring, but in case it has something to do with what I said, there is no way that I said that the U.S. is at "fault" for something someone outside the U.S. did. What I did say is that if you are interested in rounding up terrorists, if you don't take a long hard look at Henry Kissinger, then you're not really interested in peace.
quote:
There have been posts that could be construed in that fashion.
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell!
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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Mespo_man
Skeptic Friend
USA
312 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2001 : 06:35:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
One other thing I feel that should be brought up. In America we usually try people in a court of law to determine their guilt. I know bin laden is not an American and all that but couldn't a trial be conducted first even if he was not present in order to ascertain his guilt? Or do we have no need of that because everyone just figures he's a guilty bastard and should die and we should take out innocents if necessary because we all just figure he's guilty? [@tomic]
If there's ever a public trial for Osama, it won't be for quite some time. A public trial requires public evidence which won't be forthcoming. Information will be disseminated from government agencies on a need-to-know basis. That leaves you and me and 99.9999% of the rest of Americans out of the loop. On the other hand, under U.S. law, he could be secretly indicted by a New York or Federal grand jury, perhaps. Not sure. Meanwhile, other suspects may or may not make it to the court house alive. "Oops. DAMN! Did my gun go off in your face. Gee. I'm sorry!"
What would really make an impression in the Islamic world is if Osama is tried and convicted in abstentia in an Islamic court of law for defiling the faith. That would send a much more powerful message than anything us western imperialists could do.
By the way, don't worry about collateral damage. What is about to cut loose in Afghanistan is nothing less than all out civil war. The Northern Alliance will start working their way south and west out of the mountains. As they retake towns and villages that were friendly to the Taliban, there will be the settling of "accounts".
One thing for certain in this new "war". You and I and the rest of the information crazed public will only get a smidgen of what's going on. The press won't necessarily be censored, they'll simply be left un-informed. Or even better, from a military point-of-view, mis-informed. Mis-information will be but another weapon in struggle against terrorism.
But, don't take my word for it, as I'm sure you won't.  . After all, isn't this what this board is all about?
(:raig
"Come Mr. Taliban, tally me ba-nan-a.
*Uhhhh*
Daylight come and me wan go home" 
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