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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
 Posted - 12/17/2001 : 22:48:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
Six helpful people who want to help me with my credit card debt! Isn't that nice of them? If they're so smart, why don't they know I don't have any credit card debt?
Yes, I too get those email and am also not in any debt. Ironicly I also get doezens of offers to get a credit card too. How funny! I don't use many credit cards perhaps that's why I don't owe any money.
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I'd love to meet someone who sends this stuff out.
Do they actually make any money off this crap? Does anyone really respond to these spam ads? I already know what the answer would be if I asked this crowd, but what about the general public? I find it difficult to believe that anyone bright enough to turn on their computer would fall for any of it.
Lisa
I too would like to know who sends that junk but to answer your question about respondses, I've heard that they get about 1% responce, and that must be good enough to keep them in business.
Actually the 1% is for flyers and such that are left at in our home mail boxes or on our cars in parking lots so I'm assuming it's the same for emails too.
If the people who buy anything from them knew that they were subsidizing all that advertizing, ah, never mind, they probably don't care.
Rap Crap is to music what Paint by Numbers is to art. |
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Donnie B.
Skeptic Friend
417 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2001 : 08:23:43 [Permalink]
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The really absurd part of the whole "breast enhancement spam" thing is, it's quite impossible for a woman's breasts to be too small. 
Too big, however, is entirely possible, and is in fact the usual outcome of the travesty of implants.
Just MHO...
-- Donnie B.
Brian: "No, no! You have to think for yourselves!" Crowd: "Yes! We have to think for ourselves!" |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2001 : 23:37:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
The really absurd part of the whole "breast enhancement spam" thing is, it's quite impossible for a woman's breasts to be too small.
Too big, however, is entirely possible, and is in fact the usual outcome of the travesty of implants.
Just MHO...
-- Donnie B.
WHY, can anyone explain, why are so many women obsessed with their breasts? Too big is disgusting, just like those guys with the bulging musceles and blood vesels. I can't even look at them, it makes me want to puke.
Rap Crap is to music what Paint by Numbers is to art. |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2001 : 10:30:25 [Permalink]
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Snake, society tells us we should worried about our breast size. Grr! It also tells us we need to be twigs to fit in. It tells us what our opinion of beauty should be. So, societal expectations of what beauty is tell us these things. What happens when small breasts come in style.
Why the hell aren't they selling breast reductions. Big breasts are a pain - literally.
It is by the goodness of God that in our country we have those three unspeakably precious things: freedom of speech, freedom of conscience, and the prudence never to practice either of them. -Mark Twain |
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Donnie B.
Skeptic Friend
417 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2001 : 17:38:42 [Permalink]
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Actually, Trish, cosmetic surgeons do quite a few breast reductions. However, I'd guess the ratio of enhancements to reductions is around 50:1... 
If we weren't all so obsessed by appearances and artificial notions of beauty, the ratio would be 0:0.
-- Donnie B.
Brian: "No, no! You have to think for yourselves!" Crowd: "Yes! We have to think for ourselves!" |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2001 : 20:10:30 [Permalink]
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I seriously doubt you've ever tried running with them attached. Or understand the pain they can cause to your back. Why women would voluntarily have their breasts enlarged is beyond me.
It is by the goodness of God that in our country we have those three unspeakably precious things: freedom of speech, freedom of conscience, and the prudence never to practice either of them. -Mark Twain |
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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2001 : 04:45:04 [Permalink]
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I need to risk being labeled a misogynist.
quote:
If we weren't all so obsessed by appearances and artificial notions of beauty, the ratio would be 0:0.
I will not apologize for the fact that appearance matters. Nor will I apologize for my belief that some people are more attractive than others.
Of course, 'attractive' is not a simple term. There is simple physical attraction, which can probably come closer than other aspects to having an objective definition.
Then we must consider intellectual and emotional attractiveness; these probably vary more widely than physical attraction.
These 'off-the-top-of-my-head' distinctions in attractiveness may be incomplete, but they'll do for a start. They can be viewed separately or as a combination.
Example: I can recognize that Demi Moore, from a purely physical point of view, is drop dead gorgeous. However, I'd take Helen Hunt or Dana Delany over her in an instant. Lauren Hutton, too, gap-toothed smile and all. But even Helen, Dana, and Lauren have some physical attractiveness to complement their intellectual/emotional appeal; if Helen was exactly the same as she is now except that she looked like Paula Jones instead, she wouldn't be nearly so attractive as a package. Call me a pig.
Do women's looks help to attract men (okay, do they help to attract me?). Absolutely. Can looks alone keep my attention? No.
If someone built like Dolly Parton walks into the room, you can bet I'll turn my head and look, but that doesn't mean I'll keep looking.
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Snake, society tells us we should worried about our breast size. Grr! It also tells us we need to be twigs to fit in. It tells us what our opinion of beauty should be. So, societal expectations of what beauty is tell us these things. What happens when small breasts come in style
Sorry, Trish, but this is one of those mantras that irks me. What do you mean 'societal expectations' and 'society tells us'? Poppycock. 'Society' in the broad sense of that demographic whose supposed preferences determine ad revenues, has just that: preferences. Bow to them or not. You will find among men, even if not among ads, a wide variety of preferences, including many who decidely dislike large breasts, many who prefer chunkier women (I've turned off my PC translator, sorry), many who prefer shorter women, and many who prefer men. So what? In my experience, a fairly small percentage are slaves to their initial preferences, and instead do go after a whole package that has something of the physical aspects they prefer along with lots of the intellectual/emotional aspects they prefer.
I am a case in point; I have a fairly specific idea of the physical female type that absolutely bowls me over. I've even known two people fairly well who fit my idea almost perfectly. But those two women, though the opportunity was there, are not on the list of women I have been close with, simply because the rest of the package was not there (and, I think, I did not have the total package they wanted, either; that's fair, too). But I retain that physical ideal in my head.
We are physical animals as much as we are thinking animals. I will not avoid it nor apologize for it.
My kids still love me. |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2001 : 07:16:01 [Permalink]
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I agree with Garette. (No, we're not the same person acting like two people agreeing with each other all the time to bolster our (my?; his?) opinions!  )
If I were to walk into a room at a party, and see three women, one who is a knock-out, one who is pretty nice looking to average, and one who [I don't find at all physically attractive], I'm going to talk to the knock-out first. Now if the knock-out is a dimwit, I will quickly move to the one that is pretty-good-to-average. If she's a dimwit (or mean, or snobby, etc.), I will not move to the [one that I don't find physically attractive] with any intentions other than possibly having a nice conversation, even if she's smart and witty and likes the same things I do. Physical attraction is a major part of the equation that can't be thrown out, just because the Social Conscience says so.
I shouldn't have to justify nor apologize for this. It's how a male's biology works. [What I think is unattractive] is another guy's average. More power to him.
Certain segments of our society whine about how this is horrible, and "it's what's inside that counts". I say this is nonsense.
That's my opinion, and I'm sticking to it!
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Sum Ergo Cogito
Edited by - tokyodreamer on 12/20/2001 15:23:56 |
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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2001 : 07:30:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
I agree with Garette. (No, we're not the same person acting like two people agreeing with each other all the time to bolster our (my?; his?) opinions! )
We need to be careful or they'll start to figure out we've never been seen in the same room together. Then that will lead to questions. Then that will lead to the revelation that I'm not only Tokyo, but I'm also Spiderman.
I would like to add one more observation to this which is admittedly not scientific in the slightest but which is my observation nonetheless.
When I have known people who complained that:
1. They did not fit society's picture of attractiveness and
2. They did not get dates or in any way sought after because of it
they inevitably aimed their ire at the good-looking, popular guys. If it's character that counts, why not go after the the less good-looking and less popular guys. Why worry about the good-looker who is obviously lacking in character?
These are, of course, questions of great import, the answers to which may very well determine the fate of our species. Or at least the fate of the movies I rent.
My kids still love me. |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2001 : 10:11:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
Sorry, Trish, but this is one of those mantras that irks me. What do you mean 'societal expectations' and 'society tells us'? Poppycock. 'Society' in the broad sense of that demographic whose supposed preferences determine ad revenues, has just that: preferences. Bow to them or not. You will find among men, even if not among ads, a wide variety of preferences, including many who decidely dislike large breasts, many who prefer chunkier women (I've turned off my PC translator, sorry), many who prefer shorter women, and many who prefer men. So what? In my experience, a fairly small percentage are slaves to their initial preferences, and instead do go after a whole package that has something of the physical aspects they prefer along with lots of the intellectual/emotional aspects they prefer.
OK, Hollyweird. Look at advertising and movies etc, (and I'll readily admit it is changing - slowly) but through different periods there has been a specific 'body type' that sold. Marilyn Monroe, Twiggy, that whole issue with the drug look a few years ago. That has been held up as the ideal. OK, I've never fit that - however, I've never lacked for dates because of it. It's only my self view that has caused me problems in that arena. And I would say that apparently I've met that decidedly smaller proportion disproportionately. Quite possibly my own shortsightedness.
I am told this everytime I walk into a store to go shopping for clothes. Hey, I'd like to dress up once in a while. However, being that right now I am overweight, I don't have the selection that I had a year and a half ago in clothes. I'm told by my shopping experiences that I either have to go to a 'specialty store' and by 80s cast off styles or I have to buy polyester pants with an elastic waistband. I can't afford the specialty shop and I hated the 80s style in the 80s. I refuse to wear polyester. Also, I am told that my inseam measurement can not be longer than 33 1/2" for womens slacks and that that length decreases as waist size increases. Instead I have to buy mens slacks and alter them to fit. So yeah, I think to an extent that Hollyweird and New York and International fashion tell us exactly how we're supposed to look.
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I am a case in point; I have a fairly specific idea of the physical female type that absolutely bowls me over. I've even known two people fairly well who fit my idea almost perfectly. But those two women, though the opportunity was there, are not on the list of women I have been close with, simply because the rest of the package was not there (and, I think, I did not have the total package they wanted, either; that's fair, too). But I retain that physical ideal in my head.
Change the gender identity and works for me also, I'm sure most of us.
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We are physical animals as much as we are thinking animals. I will not avoid it nor apologize for it.
Neither will I.
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If I were to walk into a room at a party, and see three women, one who is a knock-out, one who is pretty nice looking to average, and one who has been beaten with an ugly stick, I'm going to talk to the knock-out first. Now if the knock-out is a dimwit, I will quickly move to the one that is pretty-good-to-average. If she's a dimwit (or mean, or snobby, etc.), I will not move to the fugly one, with any intentions other than possibly having a nice conversation, even if she's smart and witty and likes the same things I do. Physical attraction is a major part of the equation that can't be thrown out, just because the Social Conscience says so.
Hey, at least you'll talk to someone at a party.
quote:
I shouldn't have to justify nor apologize for this. It's how a male's biology works. My fugly is another guy's average. More power to him.
Certain segments of our society whine about how this is horrible, and "it's what's inside that counts". I say this is nonsense.
That's my opinion, and I'm sticking to it!
I don't disagree with your opinions here. But when I can't find clothes that I like and are fashionable because I hit a certain size - something is very wrong. It's getting better - but it's not there yet. That is a statement of the way women are expected to be. It's not even men who say this - it's other women. (Ok, I get olong better with men than I do women but...) Yes, I suppose that is an expectation of the way women are supposed to look.
quote:
When I have known people who complained that:
1. They did not fit society's picture of attractiveness and
2. They did not get dates or in any way sought after because of it
they inevitably aimed their ire at the good-looking, popular guys. If it's character that counts, why not go after the the less good-looking and less popular guys. Why worry about the good-looker who is obviously lacking in character?
No. I don't agree with this. My problem is and always has been the damned fashion industry that tells me I can't have a damned 36" inseam unless I have a 22" waist. That if I have a waist that's larger than a certain size - my legs are therefore shorter than other womens. I hate that I can't buy tall womens slacks and have them long enough. I'm only 5'7" but take and put my legs into proportion to my body and you drop about 4" off my height. I don't have a problem with men, hell knocking me upside the head with a brick is about what it takes to get me to realize that someone might actaully be flirting with me. Better yet - spell it out!
Ok, sorry for the rant - but I really do think there is a pre-determined expectation by whatever you want to call it that women should look a certain way - otherwise you don't to some extent count.
It is by the goodness of God that in our country we have those three unspeakably precious things: freedom of speech, freedom of conscience, and the prudence never to practice either of them. -Mark Twain |
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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2001 : 10:50:49 [Permalink]
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I don't think we're as far off as it seems because I agree that there are some 'standard' body types that pervade the media.
I have some issues with the generalization that therefore society expects this body type, though.
First, even if it's true, so what? We're allowed to be picky if we like.
Second, things like your limited clothing choices are driven by what sells, not by social expectations. Get on your fellow female clothes buyers for continuing to buy the stuff if they're doing it when their body types don't really fit the sizing; if they're doing that, then they are the ones perpetuating a stereotype. On the other hand, if they're buying those sizes because it fits them, then the stores are only selling that for which there is a legitimate need, in which case no harm no foul; you just happen to be one of the unfortunate few in an odd type. Stores are not required to cater to us all. In either case, it's not society, it's the patrons of the stores.
I have a similar problem. I have a long torso and shorter legs. I also have a neck and shoulder size that are too large for the standard waist cut of dress shirts. If I buy a shirt that fits my neck and shoulders, it hangs like a tarp around me. If I buy a shirt cut to my waist, I can't button the collar and sometimes not even the next button. Is it society's fault? No; it's what there is a market for.
quote:
quote:
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When I have known people who complained that:
1. They did not fit society's picture of attractiveness and
2. They did not get dates or in any way sought after because of it
they inevitably aimed their ire at the good-looking, popular guys. If it's character that counts, why not go after the the less good-looking and less popular guys. Why worry about the good-looker who is obviously lacking in character?
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No. I don't agree with this
It was a bit of a generalization based only on personal observation. I can retract...
My kids still love me. |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2001 : 10:58:05 [Permalink]
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Damned frustrating isn't it.
Your points are well taken. But that doesn't make it any less obnoxious. It is a common enough complaint for tall women who are overweight. But what do you do? not buy clothes?
It is by the goodness of God that in our country we have those three unspeakably precious things: freedom of speech, freedom of conscience, and the prudence never to practice either of them. -Mark Twain |
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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2001 : 11:04:33 [Permalink]
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Re-read some posts and have to add more:
quote:
OK, Hollyweird. Look at advertising and movies etc, (and I'll readily admit it is changing - slowly) but through different periods there has been a specific 'body type' that sold. Marilyn Monroe, Twiggy, that whole issue with the drug look a few years ago. That has been held up as the ideal.
You are correct. 100% correct. So what? Movies are entertainment. We (maybe I should just say "I"?) do not go to the movies to find a lifelong partner.
I have admitted, you have agreed, and I think most will admit, that we have some ideal image in our head, but we are not ruled by them. The ideal is a fantasy in whatever sense you want to define it; it is not an expectation nor a criterion.
When I say "Man! Actress X was hot!" because she fits my ideal, and I just saw her latest movie, it is not equivalent to me saying "Man! I'm never going to seriously consider anyone who doesn't look like Actress X as a potential partner." The movie is an extension of the fantasy; nothing more.
If you (in the general sense; not necessarily 'you' you) decide to emulate the fantasy as depicted in the movie, fine, but don't blame me. Hollywood may think they know what's important, but that doesn't mean you have to buy into it, even if it's pervasive. I DON'T WANT MY FANTASY! I want my fantasy if and only if she also has those other aspects of attractiveness; if that woman doesn't exist then I'll go with what is equally attractive but different physically.
I have no problem with the ladies I know (including some very close ladies) who find George Clooney sexy. Or Mel Gibson or Russell Crowe or whoever. I can, in fact, recognize why they think so. I can, in fact, recognize that from a physical standpoint George Clooney et al are sexier by far than I am. No biggie. They're not really after George Clooney; they're after a relationship and, on some level at least, I offer it.
And even if they asked, I wouldn't get my penis enlarged. So far, no one's asked...
My kids still love me. |
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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2001 : 11:06:43 [Permalink]
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Whoops. Posted that last before I read yours just before it.
The answer? Ludditism. Grow your own flax and use a spinning wheel.
And shoot Demi Moore. I for one would not object. But hands off Helen and Dana, please.
My kids still love me. |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2001 : 11:31:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
The answer? Ludditism. Grow your own flax and use a spinning wheel.
Yeah, right.
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You are correct. 100% correct. So what? Movies are entertainment. We (maybe I should just say "I"?) do not go to the movies to find a lifelong partner.
Most mentally stable people don't.
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If you (in the general sense; not necessarily 'you' you) decide to emulate the fantasy as depicted in the movie, fine, but don't blame me. Hollywood may think they know what's important, but that doesn't mean you have to buy into it, even if it's pervasive. I DON'T WANT MY FANTASY! I want my fantasy if and only if she also has those other aspects of attractiveness; if that woman doesn't exist then I'll go with what is equally attractive but different physically.
First rule of advertising - repeat it enough and it will stick. But understand.
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I have no problem with the ladies I know (including some very close ladies) who find George Clooney sexy. Or Mel Gibson or Russell Crowe or whoever. I can, in fact, recognize why they think so. I can, in fact, recognize that from a physical standpoint George Clooney et al are sexier by far than I am. No biggie. They're not really after George Clooney; they're after a relationship and, on some level at least, I offer it.
On an initial social basis - TD pointed this out - looks do matter. On an initial basis, I am looked over, not in the relationship department either but in general. This hold true for both men and women - since I've been overweight, I've had sales clerks walk away from me, ignore me and be down right rude. Hell, I've even had a grocery store clerk close his line on me. Yes they were all much younger people - but I never noticed this two years ago. I don't know if it's my mental outlook or actually because I am looked at differently. I understand that occasionally an employee might actually have something else to do. But when five employees are standing around talking and before I get there they disperse.... I have gone back in several places in business attire and not been ignored. Yes, I have made complaints to the management.
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And even if they asked, I wouldn't get my penis enlarged. So far, no one's asked...
No offense - but who cares? You either take a person for who they are or you're not going to be happy - whether a relationship or friendship.
It is by the goodness of God that in our country we have those three unspeakably precious things: freedom of speech, freedom of conscience, and the prudence never to practice either of them. -Mark Twain |
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